Cooley's Lake Red River

[Judge]

Here's something I found on my computer that was related to the court case...http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-5th-circuit/1241993.html

There are a couple of things about that case that stands out:
1.)  The property they are discussing is dry sometimes and floods sometimes depending on the fluctuating water levels....Coolies has water in it all the time.
2.)  The Louisiana 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals did not decide the issue we are concerned about because they found a way to punt it without deciding the hard issue, the La. Supreme court denied writs so they did not have to hear it and the Federal Court, while having a good discussion about public access, only dealt  with the issue before them which was the lawsuit against the Sheriff for wrongful arrest.  So, they kinda left some unanswered questions

That being said the discussion about public access brings out a couple of interesting points too:
1.)  private land that is flooded by navigable waters does not change the ownership of the land, its still privately owned water and all.  It only creates a public right of way for limited purpose NAVIGATION.  The court discussed that it does not give the public the right to hunt, fish or trap only to navigate in their course of travel.  They seem to say that if you are using Coolie's to get from one spot to the other then its not trespassing due to it being part of a navigable waterway and the public has the right to use it for the purposes of navigation; but that right does not extend to fishing.  I have never been in Coolie's so I could avoid "if the judge is in there it must be legal" argument, but I understand it has no navigation purpose since it only has one way in and one way out.
2.)  How is a fisherman supposed to know which lakes or oxbows that stay flooded year round are private or public.  No trespassing signs are a good start but I have seen hunters put up posted signs on the edges of WMA's to confuse other hunters and keep them out of a good spot, etc, or if the the alluvion (adding of land) or erosion is natural then can a flooded area that was once private become public as too the water.

Just saying that Coolie's is absolutely private property.  I have not done any additional research (only read this case Todd provided) but it appears that you are trespassing if you are fishing it, but ok if you are using it for navigation (good luck explaining that one to the judge)

Fisher - That might help explain what you have been told/taught about if it is accessible by water then it's public

I will have my office do some additional research and see if we can clear all this up, maybe can get the Attorney General to help

[Shorthaired]

How interesting to have this conversation with several attorneys, Red River Waterway Commission employee, members of the public, and an actual judge!

We really appreciate your insight Judge.

or if the the alluvion (adding of land) or erosion is natural then can a flooded area that was once private become public as too the water.

I think the rules re: alluvion and erosion have changed on those bodies of water which are heavily altered by acts of man.  In reality, each of the Red River's pools are now better analogized to lakes than rivers.  Since current still exists on the Red River, I think a good argument could be made re: the imperceptible buildup of soil or erosion - but it would likely require timelapse aerial/satellite photography and/or affidavits of those with familiarity of the area over a wide range of years.

[ACOSENZA77]

THANKS FOR THE INSIGHT GUYS......SHAKE OFF THE HATERS...LMBO

[Broskee]

i really don't see anyone police-ing these places to keep people out, especially coolies. If they had we would all know, so people will come and go as they please just as they have since it got accessable.

[beast96z]

The owners of the Haven wanted river access, so they opened it to the river. I think if you knowingly open your waterway to the main river, then you made it available to public access. I believe the Cooley's debacle came about because the Cooley's didn't want their lake accessible, and by powers unbenounced to them, it did.

I actually own the property behind my house that Cypress sits on, but I can't tell people not to fish back there. Just one of those things.

[Justin P]

What about the barge turnaround with its do not enter signs? Is that place actually off limits or are those signs there for no reason.

[Lawguy513]

What about the barge turnaround with its do not enter signs? Is that place actually off limits or are those signs there for no reason.

That is off limits. 

[FishinSteelersFan]

All inquiries related to Cooley Lake, and other private property along the Red River, should be directed to the Red River Waterway Commission at (318) 352-7446.

[LaJ10]

 So if I am understanding this right if you are on any body of water that has been dammed up,which most lakes are dammed up streams, then you would need to know where the "expected" or normal pool water line would be to legally fish certain parts ?

[FishinSteelersFan]

So if I am understanding this right if you are on any body of water that has been dammed up,which most lakes are dammed up streams, then you would need to know where the "expected" or normal pool water line would be to legally fish certain parts ?

All inquiries related to Cooley Lake, and other private property along the Red River, should be directed to the Red River Waterway Commission at (318) 352-7446.

[Fisher of Men]

Very well put Shorthaired...Fisher of Men, all those former private land owners on the properties that you listed (mcdade, whitehouse, bee hive, caspiana) have been paid for the land that the "waterway" flooded when they built the Locks and Dams.  I work for the Red River Waterway Commission, I know the story with Cooley's...IT'S PRIVATE PROPERTY, and if you trespass onto private property then you're subject to the same consequences as someone coming onto your farm and hunting your land without your permission...and I haven't seen the landowner or leasors give anyone permission to enter that particular property, they simply haven't had anyone arrested for trespassing yet.  I have spoken to both Mr. and Mrs. Cooley, before their passing, and they expressed to me that they didn't want anyone coming into that lake.  In fact, they put up fencing/pipe-gate/t-posts/concrete/rocks/and signs to try and keep people out, but trespassers keep tearing them down...to the point of using explosives, prior to RRSM being built, to blow up the concrete/pipe-gate.  So you see, Cooley Lake is not a new subject...just something that some citizens take for granted that as long as they don't get arrested then they feel that they are not really doing anything wrong.

I understand the difference now, but i didnt mention whitehouse, mcdade or beehive.  Shorthaired explained it very well that the instance i am talking about with natural erosion and flooding due to the lock and dam are two different things. Thanks for explaining it

[Judge]

So if I am understanding this right if you are on any body of water that has been dammed up,which most lakes are dammed up streams, then you would need to know where the "expected" or normal pool water line would be to legally fish certain parts ?

Todd is right it has to be considered navigable for your theory to apply.  Most lakes are not navigable waterways.

[FishinSteelersFan]

I understand the difference now, but i didnt mention whitehouse, mcdade or beehive.  Shorthaired explained it very well that the instance i am talking about with natural erosion and flooding due to the lock and dam are two different things. Thanks for explaining it

All inquiries related to Cooley Lake, and other private property along the Red River, should be directed to the Red River Waterway Commission at (318) 352-7446.

[Kyle Kennington]

Seems as if the army corp wrote the family a check for coolies but the lady never cashed the check. Not near a lawyer but I assume that falls under "no consideration" shown or accepted.

[Lawguy513]

If the Corps went through the expropriation process and had it granted, it wouldn't matter if she cashed the check.  For a straight up sale, you would need thing, price and consent.  THere is no concent if the price is refused. 

[beast96z]

Seems as if the army corp wrote the family a check for coolies but the lady never cashed the check. Not near a lawyer but I assume that falls under "no consideration" shown or accepted.

That's a interesting addition to things. If that's the case, then it is legal water. If she/they granted permission and was paid, then wether or not they cashed the check woul dbe null. I imagine there is some grey area in here somewhere, otherwise there wouldn't be such a debacle as to wether or not you could go in there legaly.

[Shorthaired]

Seems as if the army corp wrote the family a check for coolies but the lady never cashed the check. Not near a lawyer but I assume that falls under "no consideration" shown or accepted.

Corp couldn't expropriate the area otherwise they would have.  That's the point of this entire conversation.   

Dude I know enthusiastic fishermen want to be where the fish are - but we have to show common sense sometimes and realize that there are just some places we are not allowed to fish.  People are allowed to have private property - and the screwed up politics of how the locks and dams were built and the subsequent erosion of the levee shouldn't cause us as fishermen and sportsmen to forget our ideals of honesty and respect for other people's property.  As has been repeated thousands of times, they apparently don't care if you go there during non-duck season - but beating the issue to death on here trying to prove them to be bad guys or try to find a loophole in the law that will allow fishermen to access private property isn't very constructive.

Check out this thread from 2008 in which Beagle, FisherSteelersFan, Ron, and others participated and basically came to the same conclusion we have here - but also agreed that the SMARTEST approach would be to leave the area alone less the landowners get upset and one day decide to start having everyone arrested for trespassing.

http://www.ultimatebass.com/bass-fishing-forum/index.php?topic=51831.25

[beast96z]

If someone knew the owners, it would put this whole thing to rest. It would be nice to know how they feel about it. I can assure you, going around there during duck season isn't a good idea. I've had lead slung at me many times from that side and I was still in Port Lake. They are avid about those ducks!

[Broskee]

It's called an analogy, but you most likely don't know what that is, so why waste my breath. If you are going to come in and call names, at least make sure you spell check. Maybe if you came in here with a point of view instead of a overly defensive bad attitude, more of us could find out what your deal is? You won't do it though. You'll hide behind your appropriately given name and come back from time to time and act like a tool.

Probably one of those lurkers here that just reads information. So anyways when is this topic going to end? I think it has come down to a pissing match between one person who doesn't agree and talks a bunch of junk, and the people that care. If it is the law and you know it is illegal then don't fish it. When I first fished coolies I had no idea it was off limits much less not a part of the river, but since I have been on this site I now know what is off limits and what is not. So in retrospect do they have posted signs saying that is private property and stay out or you will be arrested. I haven't even seen one in coolies, and not saying that there isn't one. So people that don't know that it is off limits will still fish it and the people that do know will sit back and complain about it. This is a never ending topic, that will only be solved by actually talking to the land owners.

Nuff said thank you and have a great memorial day weekend.

[Kyle Kennington]

Am I missing something?
I am not aware of any complaints of people fishing in that hole. They have asked that we don't get in there during duck season. Other than that, most money in the Boss, Rmtt and many other tourneys I have participated in comes from coolies. If you don't feel like you should be in there then don't go. If they are that upset that people fish in there, they will make one call to Donnie Keith and he will take care of it via LDWF or his department. They haven't done that in at least the past 8 yrs or so.
Tight lines.

[mck310]

Wow,

I left for a few days to visit family in Illinois and came back to three pages of posts.  I really appreciates everyone's input.  I didn't mean to start any trouble, I really just asked because the map I bought at WalMart shows it as private. 

Thanks all for the info

[FishinSteelersFan]

All inquiries related to Cooley Lake, and other private property along the Red River, should be directed to the Red River Waterway Commission at (318) 352-7446.

[Justin P]

Wow,

I left for a few days to visit family in Illinois and came back to three pages of posts.  I really appreciates everyone's input.  I didn't mean to start any trouble, I really just asked because the map I bought at WalMart shows it as private. 

Thanks all for the info
[/quote

So after reading all this info are you going to fish there or not?

[FishinSteelersFan]

All inquiries related to Cooley Lake, and other private property along the Red River, should be directed to the Red River Waterway Commission at (318) 352-7446.

[mck310]

Justin,

No I will not be fishing Cooley's.  It may not be a poplar decision, but I do respect their property.

I don't agree with the ruling and I kind of think they or the waterway commission should spend the money to land-lock the property or the Cooley's should sell out to the commission and make it public. 

The problem is that they put up signs and then someone tears them down.  Then the innocent by standard stumbles in there because it is accessible and then they pay the price.

I know now there is a lot of controversy about this property, so I will stay away.