V6 loopers 200-225

[jody]

     need help finding easy power tips for loopers?Have 62 bottom jets want to go up?                   One piston is at 030 over should i use a bigger jet there?Already shaved heads just havent ran them yet.Buying Rich Boger prop but want to do any mods before.The boat is 20'6 gambler with 91 225 omc.Shaved heads 023.

[The Witchdoctor]

Ol rowdy should be along any minute! He is diffently THE MAN on the rudes!

[Way2slow]

The Rowdy one might shoot me down, since I don't know a whole lot about loopers, but I see some concerns here.   

If that's a 91 225, I thought it was suppose to have #68 main jets.  I thought the 200's were the only ones with 62d's.   Actaully, I thought the safe way to get one was with #68 in the top four and #70's in the bottom two.

Another area of concern is boosting the compression on those heads.  Those were about the worst of the lot for detanation.

Now, if I had a stock 91 225  looper and wanted to get a little more out of it, I think the first thing I would do is find me a set of the 2.7 225 heads (they have .700" deep chambers) or take a set of late model heads and have them cut and worked by one of the guru's.  If neither of them work out, I would find me set of Wayne Taylor, Baker or Stoker heads that are approx 50cc, those are the the best.

I would also order me a set of .106 pullovers, four 76d and two 78d main jets.

With my set of heads, I would pull my old heads off, take some Marine-Tex and plug the exhaust relief holes and install my new heads.

Then I would take that air box off and take the baffle out of the inside, checking to make sure my carbs were 225's by measuring the venturi to see if it's 1.45".

While I had the air box off, I would install my 106 pullovers in all six carbs, the 76d's in the top four carbs and the 78d's in the bottom two carbs.  THis might be a little rich but I fell it's better to start a little rich than take a chance on starting a little lean.

From there, I would back my timing down to 16 degrees, get the gas out of my tanks, fill it up with 91/93 octane take it to the lake and see if it wouldn't put a big old grin on my face.

I would run it WOT for about thirty seconds and while holding it WOT, cut it off, pull the plugs and check the pistons and plugs to make sure she has the right burn.

Like I said though, don't know much about them so I'm sure the experts will set you straight.

[jody]

Way2slow, Thank you for all info,But i do not know what a 106pullover is? I plugged relief holes.Told it was 225 do not know how to tell them apart.Powerhead welch plug does not match midsection.If 200 what jets do you recomend?   Thanks JODY

[Way2slow]

Jody, the .106 pullover are brass tubes that go in a small hole in the front of your carbs.  They are not necesssary until you remove the air box, or gut it and boost the compression.  When you do this the upper midrange has a tendency to get lean just before the mains start to  pull in.  these tubes restict the air bleed orfice for the mains and makes them pull in a couple of hundred rpm sooner.

The easiest way to tell if you are running 200 or 225 carbs, is by measuring the the smallest part of the venturi, (carb throat).  A 200 carb will measure 1.3 something inches and 225 carb will measure approx 1.45".   I sounds like you might have the 200 carbs because with #62 jets.   The carbs are the only difference in the 200 and 225.

Damn, now you have me wondering.  Like I said, don't know much about the stock loopers but seems like when I bought my first one, an 89 GT 200, it had the 225 carbs but only had #62 jets.  The GT 200's had the 225 carbs.  I don't work on motors for other people and I have never run (actually never even started) a stock motor, so when it gets into all this stock stuff, I get have a tendency to get things screwed up. 

Rowdy would probably be the best one to advise you on what to do with a stock motor, but now if you want to know how to make it a 300 hp, monster motor, that I would have no problem with.

As for jets in yours, you need to verify what carbs you have.  Then if you are going to gut/remove the air box and how much compression.   A stock 3.0 with 225 carbs and with the air box removed or gutted would run approx 72d's in the top four and 74d's in the bottom two.   If you boost the compression very much you will probably need to go up one or two jet sizes from that.   If you take the compression up to 145 - 150 lbs and run good heads, you may even have to go a little larger and add the pullovers.

[Rowdy]

All this sounds about right to me guys, I would add to this one thing that comes to mind here. The carbs on those motors have the four screw side plates. A person really needs to pull the carbs and put a big fender washer under the screw that is off coving to much of the plate from the others.

This will help seal the cover from sucking in raw unmetered air. They really had a problem with this and caused more trouble with bad idle quality than anything in stock form. Once the motor would be modified it could become a running issue and even lead to a lean hole from the others and a person who is keen on reading plugs when trying to get the jetting right after the mod work would have a bad time with this and at best just run the hole to rich from a side plate leaking raw air.
Along the same line with the fuel concerns with a modified motor, I would make sure to check fuel system in the boat. Gut the anti-sypon valve too. If you run two tanks I would sure make certain of the fuel selection valve to be one that opens up all the way. If a remote valve that comes with the boat, would probably ditch that valve for a full opening ball valve for each tank to a "T" fitting instead of the OEM valve. Those have killed more P/H's than we will ever be able to account for.

Also at this point would be a good time to probably just mix the fuel and oil and by pass the OMS. Then depending on what WOT RPM you plan on proping her with one of Bogers wheels, if much over 6000 I would run 40:1 oil mix instead of the 50:1. If over 6300 I would use 32:1 fuel oil mix reguardless of how you jet the motor. Great thread started here guys, look forward to following along with this so please keep us posted and allow all of us to enjoy what you guys do and end up with...

[jody]

Thank you guys for all the help!! I cant wait to get this stuff done and put a boger prop to the test.I have made a few calls trying to find "106 pullovers" but no luck yet, maybe there is another name? I did not see anything with 4 screws on the carbs, I saw a plate with 2 screws? The carbs are off a GT200 90 model.I plugged idle holes and polished heads and will do carb work,what jets would rowdy start with??? Again thanks for all the help Way2slow and rowdy!!!!

[The Witchdoctor]

Most people at MOST marinas that are parts people don't have a clue what a pullover is. I believe( correct me if I AM WRONG) the 98 225 ho already has them...... Just a starting point for ya.....

[Way2slow]

Rowdy, why haven't you said something about that little washer on the side cover somewhere in the past three years.   I have a set of early mid size carbs that have always been a major challange to jet the idle's.  One might take a #14 orifice and the one next to it may take a #46 to get them right.  I've rebuilt them and replaced that side cover gasket on two seperate occassions, I've pulled them off the motor several times to check for leaks and flatness and replaced the seal, I've pulled the intakes off and replaced the gasket thinking that might be the cause, I've replaced all the recirc hoses at least twice.  I finally got tired on messing with them and swapped the whole intake system and carbs out.  Now you say my only problem may have been a 5 cent washer needed to be added.

(Pullovers)
There are part numbers for them and Rowdy may have them.  They come in sizes from .076 - .106" but the .106 should be all you would need.  You're right, most places don't have a clue what they are.  Back when I first started trying to find some I showed them to a dealer, he said the only way I could by them was to buy the whole carb.   

If all else fails and you have a credit card,  I order my jets and pullovers for Johns Custom Marine, 714 827-7920.  As to speek to Al or Little John.  Most likely it will be Little John so tell him to have Al send you a set of .106 pullovers and what ever jet sizes you decide on.  Pullovers and jets average approx $6.50 each plus shipping. 

[jody]

Guys while we are working on omcs  I also would like some help with a 99 175 johnson.Does it have idle relief holes and how hard is it to unhook the oil injection?Also did i understand that with compression only 110 on the 225 i donot need 106 pullovers?

[Way2slow]

Jody,

As for the 175, sorry but I can't help you on that one.  As I said, I don't work on outboards and have never seen a 60 degree motor with the cover off.

For the pullover's, if you are still running the whole factory air box, you don't need to worry about installing the .106 pullovers, don't really matter what compression you are running.  That airbox was built with a right smart of restriction in it so the carbs will suck bunches of gas as long as it's in place.  Kinda like riding around with the choke partially pulled on you lawn mower, the diffference is, the factory jetted the carbs on that motor for that restriction.  If you just took the air box off and ran it WOT it would blow the center right out of the pistons within a minute.

You only need to worry about them if you do all the crap I said I would do if I wanted to get the most out of that motor without going in and porting it.  If you removed the air box, jetted the carbs up for that, and kicked the compression up to 130+ pounds etc, that's when you start having lean upper midrange problems and would want to install the pullovers.

[Rowdy]

OK, for everyones info here the 106 pullovers are part#322812 this will be a BRP part.

Now as for the fender washer on the carb side covers on those that have the 4 screw side covers, I have mentioned that and on many ocassions on several forums over the last I don't know how many years. Some may have just missed the memo on this LOL...

Now as for a starting point on the jetting on this motor here in question, I would first want to know exactly what we have here. I thought this was a 91 from what I remember reading in the beginning of the thread here??? If a 91 MY, I would jet the motor 68 to start with the bottom two one size fatter, this being if your running 120ish compression.

Now something has come up on a 90 model? The deal here is all this really gets pretty dicey when you tweek things to the Nth degree and try and get more from a motor by doing so. You go in a motor and get a little bit happy with something, maybe on a few thousand's; you just messed up big and may very well end up with a pouch if not worse.

So if we have miss matched parts on a motor from what year the block is for as like carbs here, its very important to know this up front to better know what your doing before you start. Another thing here along the same lines is mid year changes on the motors. Some years are transition years where there will be big changes on things that happen in the middle of the year model, I seem to remember 90' being one of those years too. So be very sure of what we have here.

Now for as the Eagle motors(60 Degree) they are somewhat different in that the biggest problem you run into on them is a exhaust restriction in the block casting itself. So once you get to a certain point with it, it's not going to make much difference what you do with her she will only be able to exhaust so much out and thats it. At least until you cut the exhaust cover off and build the exhaust area inside the block out way differently. So just beware of that before you go and spned lots of time and money on those expecting 100 more HP when your through. There are things you can do and gain respectable amounts of power from them along the lines of 35-50 HP on the 150's, but expect to spend some money doing so.

OK, now I hope I may have cleared some of the confussion up at least that part I could. I will check in again when I get the chance. Laterz

[jody]

Thank you Rowdy,What i have is a 93 225 power head with 90 GT200 carbs.They measure 1.45 at the narrowist point,I shaved the heads .023 and polished the area around the plug holes then plugged the idle holes and it gave me 105 comp.I gutted the air box bought a boger prop and just need help with jet sizes(have not ran it after mods)the bottom port piston is .030 over.Do i need 106's,the top jet is 36, middle is 46, bottom 62.I know these are very minor mods but cant spend alot on it.Thank you and others for all the help!!!!

[Way2slow]

Jody,

I'm gonna leave this one to Rowdy but what ever you do, don't run that motor the way you have it.

If it's a 93 225 it should be a finger ported closed deck block.  I'm not sure what heads the 93 had but if they are similar to the later models, you don't need to two worry about jetting up the lower two cylinders, the heads have larger chambers in the bottom to drop the compression.  Another question, did you put and early crank in or are you running the 93 LU.  The 90 and 93 motors have different crankshafts in them and have to have the LU/drive shaft to match them.

With a 1.45" venturi, those are the 225 type carbs.  Here's the problem now, they will be jetted nothing like what you are going to need on a closed deck 225 powerhead.   Maybe Rowdy has had dealings with this configuration and can get you close but I have a feeling you are going to need to do a lot of jet swapping before you get it right.   Also, with a gutted airbox, and a closed deck finger ported motor, I would play it safe and start with a set of  .106's.

If you were close to Macon GA, I might could help you, I have jet kit that I keep sets most of the jets need to jet those carbs, main jets from 70d's - 80d's, mid/idle's from plugs to 46's with approx three number size's between them.  I also made one of Rowdy's kits to connect a magnahelic.  Although I haven't used it for a while.  I've gone to jetting by egt's.  I  have all my powerheads/blocks setup so I read the EGT's through a headbolt and directly into the exhaust ports.  350 - 375 degrees @1000 rpm in neutral makes a pefect idle with only a slight trace of smoke.  I should mention though, this is approx a $1000 setup so not something you would want to get into.

[Rowdy]

Finger port blocks was in 94 MY motors. The 93 would be a closed deck though which is fine. The compression you have, if 105 is what you got right now, thats not a bad thing. Actually a really good number that is conservative and safer to run with our gas.

The gas is a big learning curve for most guys, it needs to stay fresh. In that it means no older than 45 days. So only buy the fuel on the way to the lake, use all of it up each trip to the lake and leave a safe enough margin to get back to the trailer. Leave the tank empty on the trailer till the day you head back to the lake.
I would do this on any OB setup anymore with fuel like it is.

Now with the compression you have told us you have, and your sure of the compression guages readings, jet her around 64-65 will be about right if you are under 1500 foot above sea level and have a good color on piston tops after a good WOT run. Check for the coke color after a short run across the lake with no idle time after the run. WOT for a minute and pull kill cord and read plugs and pistons for color. You shouldn't need anymore than the 65's I would think with things like you have them.

Now since the head work and all check the torque on the heads, actually that is not what I meant to say, retorque the head bolts. Loosen one at a time and pull back to spec...Then recheck the compression after this. You really don't want to miss the compression by any amount, so get what is there, do the retorque with the block cooled down will be better. Just loosen one bolt at a time and pull back up and then go to the next one. Let us know how things work out for you and what you see.

[jody]

Thank you Rowdy, But i didnt read anything about the pullovers????Do you think i need them???With a wot run how wet should the plugs be to have the right jets?If you have any simple suggestions on the 99 175 i would really be thankful. Would like to pick up 300-400 rpms without changing props or moving jackplate.Thank you very much, JODY

[Rowdy]

With the 109 compression you mentioned and the right jets followed by gutting the air box, unless you go up more on compression, you will not need to the pullovers. For as wet plugs, you really should have a nice dark tank color or coke color which will be close to black with a hint of tan in the plugs with a good long WOT burn and pull the kill cord.

For as the eagle and getting 3-400 R's, that would be a lot in most cases. Not sure of where you have her setup for as WOT RPM profile now? You can go in the area as you did with your 200-225 and up the compression some, at least to a point. That will be the cheapest fastest way there. These motors are more expensive to get more from them and very limited to how much you can have.

[jody]

Thank you again Rowdy,What spark plugs would you run in this motor?I did the wot run test with 70 jets and it looked a little lean with QL77JC4.Should i try QL78YC? Getting things really close so i can send the Boger prop back for fine tuning.Before mods i ran a 24 raker at 6300 70mph now i turned a 26 raker 6300 at 74 with the jackplate .75 inches lower,still trying to lose slip!!!!The math said we had about 15% slip would like to get to 8% before boger works his magic!!!!!

[jody]

Hello Hello, is thing working???

[Mike Cork]

yep still working, Ole Rowdy gets busy from time to time, but does stop by here as often as he can. I know he has been working on some home projects, then there is that big ole white elephant of his that is coming along nicely, not to mention his day to day job. I am sure he will be by shortly.

[callyer]

Let's revitalize this thread!!.. I posted this message below on another board with no real help.. But it sounds like this is the place I needed to be. I will check on the exact jet sizes next time I am in the motor (hopefully next couple of days) Compression is between 100 and 110 I believe on all cylinders. I really just need to see if someone recognizes this setup, and can give me some direction on plugs, float heights, timing, etc. Thanks in advance for all your help!!!! I live in Phoenix, if that helps for elevation purposes.

"Ok.. Here goes. I have a evinrude 200xp motor was sitting, went through, compression good, replaced water pump, gear case lube, replaced fuel lines, re-built carbs, replaced leaky water lines, removed and cleaned intake/ passages, replaced thermostats, verified VRO operation and flow, New plugs, Replaced one bad power pack. When doing all this (before realizing the power pack was bad), I reset float heights to factory (level with gasket).. I did this, and replaced the plugs with the factory recommended plugs (without paying attention to what was in it)  at the time not realizing that this engine was not stock (one of the carb jets is a plugged, and the others are not factory size.. when replaced with stock jets.. motor runs horribly!) Here is what is happening now. boat starts cold fine.. no wake fine.. then I take off, and run like a bat out of hell... I can run this way indefinitely, WOT is about 5500 RPM, I can also throttle down and up as long as I am on plane, when I stop the boat, everything seems fine... I can re-start.. Idle around, run at no wake speeds. But once warmed up, If I try to get back up on plane It bogs down, and if I continue to gas it, it will die. Now if I push in the key at the same time as I throttle up (adding fuel), It will take off and go again just fine. I think it is running rich at midrange, but how would sending extra gas into the cylinders help a rich condition??? If anyone has any info on typical modifications for this motor set up, that could help a lot... I did not realize this motor was modified, or I would have paid a lot closer attention what the old plugs were, or what the float height were set at, etc. I am so close to having this thing dialed in... any and all help/ suggestions would be appreciated."

[topcat]

Welcome Aboard  callyer we are delighted that you have chose to become a member of Ultimate Bass....I an sure that someone will be able to help you with your evinrude 200xp motor question that you have posted......if we can help you find anything or you have question about the site just let me know....I see you live in Phoenix....I look forward to reading and chatting with you about some of the lakes you fish in Phoenix... good luck with your motor and once again welcome and enjoy ......

Topcat

[AB]

Well, you sure have a doozie...

The bog that you are getting indicates it is lean.  Not getting enough fuel, that's why it bogs, but takes off ok after adding fuel to it (choking it).  I really don't know too much about the ol Johnnies, but I'll see if I can track down someone that can help.

[callyer]

Thanks.. any and all info and suggestions help..... maybe Rowdy will stop by!

Doesn't warming up usually help a lean condition? That is what made me originally think it was running rich......

[AB]

If it were too rich and you hit the choke, it would either make the bog a lot worse or kill the motor.