Rod Sensitivity

[FlatsNBay]

When ordering a rod online, how can you tell a rod's sensitivity? Does the blank make a difference such as 40 ton vs. 36 ton? How about different components on the rod? What makes a sensitive rod?

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[Capt. BassinLou]

When ordering a rod online, how can you tell a rod's sensitivity? Does the blank make a difference such as 40 ton vs. 36 ton? How about different components on the rod? What makes a sensitive rod?

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Great questions Flat's!! These are deceivingly complex questions and it all depends on the anglers rod knowledge.

I will use myself has an example. I thought "I knew" about rods until I came across 3 guys that REALLY educated me about rods. These guys are rod builders, Lee Smith and FD, and a true rod enthusiast friend of mine named JJ. I went the custom rod route for a spell, and I quickly realized I only had an average understanding of the materials that go into a good/great rod.

With out going into a deep dive and rambling about this great topic, my .02 is the following. The angler must ask his/her self this question: What technique(s) will the rod be used for? Of course their budget will play a role here as well, but finding the right balance between power and sensitivity is key.

Learning the pro's and con's of the rods materials are very important. For example, a decked out high modulus rod with top notch componentry is awesome. Sensitivity through the roof!! But handle that rod incorrectly and it will break on you like twig. Versus purchasing a mid level modulus rod but have top notch guides and a great reel seat, and you will have yourself a very nice sensitive "work horse" style of rod.

If any one got lost when I said modulus, reel guides, and reel seats, here's where studying about the different rod materials and componentry will go a really long way.

Good topic Flats!! 

[FD]

In a physics 101 nutshell, the harder the material, the easier it transfers vibrations.

Does that answer you question?  Nope but I will be back later to bore you with a detailed answer.

I promise.

It will be boring...

Sent from the very edge of civilization...where I belong

[FlatsNBay]

Great answers. To give you an example, you have $150 to spend on a new rod. How do you compare the various online choices in that price range for sensitivity?

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[Capt. BassinLou]

Great answers. To give you an example, you have $150 to spend on a new rod. How do you compare the various online choices in that price range for sensitivity?

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What would be the primary technique (use) for this rod?

[FlatsNBay]

Use whatever technique you want for the example.

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[Capt. BassinLou]

Use whatever technique you want for the example.

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Got it.

[FlatsNBay]

Let me try this in a different way..what is the difference between a 36 ton rod blank vs. a 40 ton rod blank?

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[big g]

Does anyone use pistol grip rods for top water besides me.  It makes walking action so much easier for me.  I use a 5' 10" with a soft tip and plenty of back bone.  Effortless walking action.  The normal 7 footers with longer butts, make it so much harder.

[FD]

Let me try this in a different way..what is the difference between a 36 ton rod blank vs. a 40 ton rod blank?

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Most likely, it's a lot of dollars...

In reality, not much.  These numbers are are trying to indicate a "compressive measurement" or strength of the carbon fiber (graphite) strands in the blank.  Yes a 40 is more dense than a 36 and therefore should be lighter and more sensitive.  Can you and I tell an 11% difference?  Probably not. 

Again it goes back to what you are using the rod for.  Do you need a super sensitive rod for moving baits or flipping?  Not really.  Would you like a lighter rod?  Yes.

Honestly most of the rods I build for myself  are built on standard modulus (24-30 msi) blanks.  They give you the best sensitivity and durability combination.  High Mod blanks are somewhat lighter and maybe a tad more sensitive but they are significantly more fragile.

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[Smallie_Stalker]

Let me try this in a different way..what is the difference between a 36 ton rod blank vs. a 40 ton rod blank?

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No rod is really just one rating, whether it's modulus or tonage.

Here's what Gary Dobyns has to say on these matters. It speaks to the OP's original question and particularly to what Flats asked:

"I'm getting questions about 30T, 40T, and even 46T materials. There's different percentages of materials in each rod. Here's a BS example. A Champ 734C might have 17% 24T, 32% 30T and 51% 40T. But a Champ 735C might have 13% 24T, 34% 30T, and 43% 40T. You use different percentages of materials per model, NOT per series. Many companies will add a very low percentage of 40T, maybe 5% for an example, but they'll now call it a 40T rod.  It's a game the companies play and most consumers have no idea.  Second of all all materials are NOT EVEN close to the same. Toray or Mitsubishi 30T or 40T is different than the 100's or 1000's of other brands, the weaves of materials, and then you have the resins. There's so much marketing crap with modules "number" ratings and IM ratings that's it's ridiculous. These get abused horribly by companies. Companies that make up their own material names is another game that's played. I try and explain to anglers that great materials used the right way, and balanced rods are more sensitive and this is the goal. When most of us start asking about tonnages and materials most times you're setting yourself up for a Snipe Hunt   I can't write this without sounding like it's a lecture but it's certainly not my intentions. I just want to pass info and maybe a tiny bit of education".



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[FlatsNBay]

That was good stuff and explained it quite well.

What about all the different types of guides? Will the average Angler notice any difference with the different types of guides as far as lightness and sensitivity?

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[Capt. BassinLou]

That was good stuff and explained it quite well.

What about all the different types of guides? Will the average Angler notice any difference with the different types of guides as far as lightness and sensitivity?

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A combination of premium guides and a quality reel seat will really enhance the sensitivity factor. Imo

[Smallie_Stalker]

That was good stuff and explained it quite well.

What about all the different types of guides? Will the average Angler notice any difference with the different types of guides as far as lightness and sensitivity?

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A combination of premium guides and a quality reel seat will really enhance the sensitivity factor. Imo

% agreed. Torzite guides for example.......'nuff said. .

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[Capt. BassinLou]

That was good stuff and explained it quite well.

What about all the different types of guides? Will the average Angler notice any difference with the different types of guides as far as lightness and sensitivity?

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A combination of premium guides and a quality reel seat will really enhance the sensitivity factor. Imo

% agreed. Torzite guides for example.......'nuff said. .

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I love my torzite guides, but lets keep in mind the price point that was mentioned. At the $150 price point, torzites will not be an option.

[FlatsNBay]

Let me rephrase my question. Let's all assume that premium guides will enhance sensitivity. What are the differences between guides and their inserts such as Zirconium inserts, Fazlite inserts,  aluminum oxide inserts, etc.? Let's compare any of the $150 rods found on any website. Each comes with a different type of guide. What are the differences between any of the more common guides found on many of the rod manufacturers?

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[jwkelley51]

I haven't noticed that there is a common standard regarding materials, power, action that is adhered to by all manufacturers. They're offering their personal opinion, comparing rods to others in their own line up not across the board. IMO

[coldfront]

In a physics 101 nutshell, the harder the material, the easier it transfers vibrations.

Does that answer you question?  Nope but I will be back later to bore you with a detailed answer.

I promise.

It will be boring...

Sent from the very edge of civilization...where I belong

for the easy button approach (not saying it's correct)...  IM6 blanks were the game-changer years ago.  high modulus blanks are all pretty well 'sensitive'. 


after that?  I like exposed rod blank under the reel... my fingers are in contact with the rod blank.  no, I don't run the line over my finger like all the old school experts...
lastly:  balance.  how that rod/reel are balanced plays a pretty large role in getting all the sensitivity out of the rod blank you can get.


think a prominent rod builder or two that are talked up a LOT round here might have more to say on stuff like that too..

[D.W. Verts]

Does anyone use pistol grip rods for top water besides me.  It makes walking action so much easier for me.  I use a 5' 10" with a soft tip and plenty of back bone.  Effortless walking action.  The normal 7 footers with longer butts, make it so much harder.

I think Lews shows a 6' pistol grip. I too use them. A bunch, sometimes.

Dale

[loomisguy]

I don't own any anymore but I know a lot of guys still like the ol' pistol grip. Nothing wrong with them except they are usually found on really short rods.
Just my opinion, but I think these days the fish have been live scoped and sonar pinged and just hammered on so much that the further you can get the bait away from the boat the better. I'm starting to feel the same about the ned rig.
I'm using a 7ft.3 Kistler feel n reel for my walking baits , The jury is still out but being able to heave the thing around docks while staying a ways back from them is the idea.

[loomisguy]

I don't own any anymore but I know a lot of guys still like the ol' pistol grip. Nothing wrong with them except they are usually found on really short rods.
Just my opinion, but I think these days the fish have been live scoped and sonar pinged and just hammered on so much that the further you can get the bait away from the boat the better. I'm starting to feel the same about the ned rig.
I'm using a 7ft.3 Kistler feel n reel for my walking baits , The jury is still out but being able to heave the thing around docks while staying a ways back from them is the idea.

[FD]

Did the type of insert make a difference 20 years ago when braided lines were like wire rope.  Yes.

Does it today?  Not at all.

I know your question was about sensitivity, but durability needed to be addressed first.  With today's lines you cannot damage the insert of ANY guide material.  The lines are slick and even the cheapest insert is too hard.

I build a lot of expensive rods for clients that insist on SS Torzite guide trains.  Including the tip top you are looking at over $150 for parts, my cost.

For my personal rods and clients that listen to me, I use deep pressed zirconium oxide.  Total guide train cost, $25 for parts.


Is torzite a harder material than zirconium in a lab?  Absolutely.   Is the difference distinguishable on a fishing rod.  NO.  Anyone who says they can tell is a victim of great marketing by parts manufacturers.

If you pick up a rod with torzite guides will it feel more sensitive?  Probably, but that is likely due to a combination of other factors.

As mentioned above, the most important single factor in sensitivity is balance.  A properly matched and balanced rod constructed of new old stock parts costing under $100 can feel and fish much more sensitive than most commercial "high end" rods.

To answer your question specifically an average angler cannot tell the difference.  What they think is more sensitive guides is likely just a better balanced rod.  Or good marketing. 😉

[FlatsNBay]

Perfect FD. That's what I was looking for. I raised the question when I was looking at all the differences when trying to compare the different rods at any price point online. Each listing was a different type of blank with many different types of guides. I thought to myself, how does the average Angler tell the difference between 2 rods? I wasn't meaning to get hung up on the $150 price point example. I was just trying to use a price point that would be common among anglers. The example could be applied to any price point. Trying to wade through all the marketing can be tough!

[rb-nc]

I have to agree with FD, balance is everything. We have a lot of rods in my boat. Falcon,Dobyns, Megabass and some I built. All are great rods. The one rod we fight over is the cheapest rod of the lot. I think I paid a total of $110 for all the components when I built it. It is a 7' topwater walking bait rod. I added weight to the butt and mounted the reel a little further back for more of an ease to work. It is truly perfect. It is the only rod we have that never has another bait tied on it

[loomisguy]

Did the type of insert make a difference 20 years ago when braided lines were like wire rope.  Yes.

Does it today?  Not at all.

I know your question was about sensitivity, but durability needed to be addressed first.  With today's lines you cannot damage the insert of ANY guide material.  The lines are slick and even the cheapest insert is too hard.

I build a lot of expensive rods for clients that insist on SS Torzite guide trains.  Including the tip top you are looking at over $150 for parts, my cost.

For my personal rods and clients that listen to me, I use deep pressed zirconium oxide.  Total guide train cost, $25 for parts.


Is torzite a harder material than zirconium in a lab?  Absolutely.   Is the difference distinguishable on a fishing rod.  NO.  Anyone who says they can tell is a victim of great marketing by parts manufacturers.

If you pick up a rod with torzite guides will it feel more sensitive?  Probably, but that is likely due to a combination of other factors.

As mentioned above, the most important single factor in sensitivity is balance.  A properly matched and balanced rod constructed of new old stock parts costing under $100 can feel and fish much more sensitive than most commercial "high end" rods.

To answer your question specifically an average angler cannot tell the difference.  What they think is more sensitive guides is likely just a better balanced rod.  Or good marketing.

Torzites are lighter. If I recall correctly the ID of a Torzite is about the same as 1 size up SIC.  Fuji claims what ? like a 25% lighter guide train.
Does it matter ? not to everyone, but that was never the market they were after. I have them on Z Bones and there is a reason they are on the Conquest and Xtasy.
I doubt anyone is going to pay $ 600 plus for Alconites.