Upgrading My 4600C4?

[TWBryan]

Due to the clothes dryer dying,and my truck a/c going toes up I think the odds of my buying the tatula I wanted are sort of slim right now. I think I might spend a little money to upgrade the abu garcia 4600c4.

Pretty sure I'll go for dual level-wind bearing kit,maybe a longer handle (gator grip or commie), not sure about spool bearings. Some people say the faster spool rotation you get from installing the hybrid ceramic bearings lead to more backlashes. I can get some Sapporo stainless bearings if they would work better.

As far as polishing it up goes I've heard that you polish the ends of the spool axle and the id of the pinion gear.

Whats the opinion on spool bearings for this reel?

Also I  was wondering if I could take the centrifugal brake that has two brake blocks (white plastic) and replace it with one of the newer brakes with six adjustable blocks?

I've seen they now have bearings put in the large plastic gears that are in the left side cover. Would one of those help or hinder?

Thanks for looking

[Lipripper]

Bummer sorry to hear about your dryer and AC in your truck going bad.  You could hang your stuff out on the line to dry but down there you need your AC in your truck.

[SteelHorseCowboy]

My 4600 RE already has spool bearings but an anti reverse dog so no IAR bearings.

Before upgrading my 5000 to a 5000C3, I did polish the spindle, pinion gear ID, and bushings ID, got great performance out of it. After upgrading to spool bearings, standard AG replacement bearings which I believe are ABEC 3 (FFF knows for sure what they are I believe), I did get more backlashes. But, all it took was some learning and practice. I'd wager that upgrading a reel makes a more pronounced difference than using one that is already equipped with spool bearings.

Just like customizing guns and motorcycles, I say do one thing at a time and see what you think. I would say upgrading to spool bearings should probably be your first step.
I'm hoping that one day mine will see full ceramics everywhere, including LW pawl and possibly a slightly longer handle.

[TWBryan]

Lipripper,thanks this stuff seems to happen in threes. The mechanical stuff is the lesser of the evils. I plan to go out tomorrow and get a new dryer. The one that died is about 10+ years old and that's a long life for the junk that is made today.

Steelhorse,I don't do motorcycles ,but I've done guns. I guess as far as polishing goes I'll treat it like a revolver. I can get the dual bearing levelwind off ebay for $25 ,and a commie handle for about $8. You think I should go for ceramic spool bearings?

Does anyone know if the brake systems will interchange?   

[bigjim5589]

TWB, I've upgraded a couple of my ABU reels, but have not done any of the 4600 reels. IMO, adding bearings where there are bushings, should be some improvement. However, whether it's worth going to the ceramic or hybrid bearings is something you have to decide. I had given thought to it, but didn't do it.

I was told by a fellow who is a tournament caster, that I wouldn't likely see much improvement if replacing the factory bearings with ABEC 7 ceramic for the extra cost of those bearings, except possibly at extreme distances. He advised for fishing to stick with stainless, and do the clean & polish. I went to ABEC 5 stainless bearings, duel bearings on the level winds, and ceramic pawls, plus the clean & polish & re-lube with a better high performance reel oil & grease. Made the reels a bit smoother, but since the reels where in real good shape to begin with, wasn't a huge improvement. I started using Quantum Hot Sauce, which was good, but have since switched to Ardent's Reel Butter. Both have performed very well, I just didn't like how the Hot Sauce turned everything it touched red and it always seemed to be going up in price! 

I did change some handles, went to the ABU power handles on some reel's but didn't care for them for bass fishing. I do have them on larger size ABU reels that I use for Striper fishing, and they're great for that purpose.

As far as the brakes, can't help you there. I have several of the Mag reels, and have never tried changing any of the brakes at all. They've all done what I needed them to do.

[TWBryan]

Thanks Big Jim, If I "upgrade" the factory spool bearings I'll probably go for the sapporo bearings or another set of quality sealed stainless bearings. Will pull apart reel tomorrow to start polishing parts and see if upgrading the brakes is feasible.

Found part numbers for the dual levelwind bearings from abu garcia.I wonder how their prices compare to the private reel parts vendors...

Thanks Again

[Pro Reel]

If you decide to try the polishing, be very cautious. I advise against using any kind of power tool or sanding medium to polish the inside of the pinion gear. The pinion is made of brass. It's very easy to change the size of the inside of the pinion with polishing because it's easy to remove brass. The spool shaft actually holds the pinion gear tightly against the main gear while the reel is in cranking mode. If you change the size of the ID at all, then the gears won't mesh tightly and will wear rapidly.
If you feel the need to polish the inside of a pinion gear, use brass cleaners and liquid polish with pipe cleaners.

[Mike Cork]

All great advice here. Ceramics are costly and don't gain the improvement most are expecting, many are disappointed because they are noisy as well. Brass-o or Buff Magic on a toothpick wrapped in cotton for the pinion gear will get you what you need without damage.

I'd do the polishing and a good flush on your current bearings first and see what you think. I'll bet you'll be amazed at the difference and likely not need a bearing upgrade.

[TWBryan]

Pro Reel,thanks for the advice,I think I'll proceed with caution. I will probably use some cue tips and some flitz polish I have.

Mr.Cork, I've already done the clean,flush,and lube job on it.It's smooth running on the factory bearings. I was considering the hybrid bearings,but if it gains nothing then I won't bother. What upgrades would you suggest?

Wondering if I should use a bearing specific lubricant? Bigjim mentioned reel butter,I think I used either abu garcia oil or some gun oil. Probably whichever one was closest to hand. :D

Bought new clothes dryer today. 

a/c in truck not working at all. 

[Mike Cork]

It's tough to see improvements past a polish. The big issue is the level wind since it stays engaged during a cast it slows down the spool. The worm gear bearing upgrade has provided significant improvements. I'm not a big upgrade guy. I believe a good clean reel with proper lubricants and polished surfaces will to anything a bass angler needs.

I use Yellow Label rocket fuel for my bearing oil.

[bigjim5589]

Wondering if I should use a bearing specific lubricant? Bigjim mentioned reel butter,I think I used either abu garcia oil or some gun oil. Probably whichever one was closest to hand. :D

Everyone has favorites as far as reel oils. The primary difference between some of the regular reel or gun oils & the higher performance synthetic oils is viscosity. Lighter oils simply allow a bearing to spin faster, but they'll all lubricate.

I even use 3 in 1 oil & petroleum jelly on some of my trolling & bottom fishing reels, and never had a problem. But, they're not being cast so spool speeds are not an issue. The oil just provides lubricant. Same with many regular reel oils, and particularly petroleum based oils. The better, higher quality, low viscosity synthetic reel oils as have been mentioned do an excellent job of both lubricating, and reducing friction to allow the bearings to spin faster and less oil can be used. Usually only a drop per bearing is all you need. Adding more oil, regardless of the type, does nothing for lubrication, or bearing speeds. In fact, because it might get into places it shouldn't, too much oil or grease, can be detrimental to the performance of a reel.

Many reels from the factories are over lubed, or it's in places it doesn't need to be, that's why often a proper cleaning & re-lubing can make a significant difference in how a reel performs without a lot of upgrades. 

[TWBryan]

Mr.Cork,thanks again for your assistance. I went ahead and ordered a dual bearing level wind and a commie reel handle. Could not find any reel bearing lube at a reasonable price . Most of the rocket fuel is from the U.K. and the shipping killed the deal for me.

BigJim, Located some reel butter so I will try it out.

I'll post once my upgrades have been completed and share my impressions on the result.

[SteelHorseCowboy]

Bryan, if you've done guns, then surely you're familiar with Ballistol? I use that dirty gym sock smelling stuff on everything, I even clean and polish the kitchen table with it. Do NOT use it to clean the toilet though. If you're in a hurry and it's fresh on the seat, you can fly off that sucker and slam into the wall.

As far as polishing methods, I use Flitz too.
Power tools. Usually a huge no-no, as has already been mentioned by Pro Reel. They do have their time and place, but inside precisely machined soft metals ain't it. Having arthritis in my hands from old injuries, I've had to learn to work around such restrictions anytime I can.

I clamped my spindle gently in a padded vise, by the end that fits in the cup of the palming side. Cut a narrow strip of 1000 grit wet or dry sandpaper about 1/8" wide, made one loop around the spindle and VERY GENTLY pulled it back and forth, working the length of the spindle. I did that very gently and sparingly. It doesn't need much to begin with and could probably go without, but it speeds this process. I only made a handful of passes, just enough to buff the existing wear marks.
I then used a narrow strip of t-shirt cloth coated in Flitz and repeated the process until I got a mirror shine.
Here's the part that killed my hands, couldn't find a way around it...
To polish the IDs of these other parts, I coated a q-tip in Flitz, held the part in one hand and the q-tip in the other, and just kept twisting them back and forth until I got the same mirror shine. Took me two days and a dose of oxycodone when I finished, but I got it done. Had to pluck a bit of cotton off a q-tip to fit it inside the pinion gear.

I still noticed a difference when I installed bearings though. But I'm also still considering going back to bushings. I'd grown quite fond of my Black Max before it took a dump this weekend, and my 5000 had collected a bit of dust. Brought it out yesterday and this morning, and apparently I'm back to square one in retraining myself in how to use it. Upgrading to a dual bearing levelwind may help that, I dunno.

[TWBryan]

Steelhorse,I know what ballistol is,but don't happen to have any around. I have a pile of stuff,but none of that .Well,let's not say none.Too darn much stuff around here to claim I don't have something. I'll follow your advice as to the polishing,slow but sure gets it done.

Right now I have completed the parts purchases,dual bearing levelwind,handle, and some ardent reel butter.It's now up to me to supply elbow grease.

The reels I've gone through and cleaned and lubed all became a good deal smoother. Most of the reels I've bought are used reels that was used and abused. Most only require clean and lube. There was one that needed 3 springs replaced,but that was about it. The abu garcia's ,the swedish made ones,hold up pretty good.

I get pains in my hands too,but the worse thing is that it takes a bright light for me to see well enough to do any work that requires me to be delicate. Come to think of it I need a bright light to even see small parts anymore.  I guess getting old is better than getting dead though. 

[SteelHorseCowboy]

Lol, I meant to take a pic of my desk/gunsmithing table/fishing reel table/work bench/"whatever" table to share last night, but my phone died right when I opened the camera.

I did clean it up a bit. An 8"X11" space to do some paperwork for all that school crap.
Lost my smokes on the desk. It's so cluttered, I even picked them up several times to look under them.

I do clean it off when it's time to tune anything with small parts though, and I have a good magnetic bowl to drop parts in.

[SteelHorseCowboy]

For light, I have a smaller LED desk lamp and a "tacticool" LED flashlight. Having a hard time finding the right headlamp to suit me within my budget for such a thing.
I can see fine, unless there's too much clutter. Got iLasik about a year and a half ago, went from 20/40 in one eye and 20/60 in the other, to 20/10 in both. But cleaning small parts? Or replacing small parts in tight, hard to reach, shadowy places? I sometimes have to shine my flashlight in there, get a good mental picture of what I'm trying to do, and go by memory.

[TWBryan]

Steelhorse,your workbench sounds like mine,cluttered up and two or three "projects" sitting around. I need better lighting I have a fluorescent light overhead,but it does little for me. I have one of those spring-festooned jointed lamps that I try to work by,but it doesn't quite have enough room to shine light on the right place. I use a streamlight tac stylus (AAA) to look for my frequently dropped parts.

The reel parts polish turned out well,the feel of the retrieve is smoother and easier. I believe I've gained about 5 feet in distance. I have the spool tension set about perfect,no backlashes. So far I am pleased with the results and might do the same thing to my "back up" 4600. The reel makes a nice "whir" sound as it casts the weight out too.

I imagine it will only get better with the dual-bearing levelwind and reel butter.  

[SteelHorseCowboy]

Yep, sure will!
After all this talk, last night I took the bearings out of my 5000 and reinstalled the bushings after touching up the polishing on them.
My backlashes have disappeared and I haven't lost any distance. Actually, after fighting with that freaking reel while the bearings were installed, I was pleasantly surprised to see I was casting further. I can put a bit more force into it without the spool running away from me.
Makes me think that upgrading the brakes could be a safe bet if you go to bearings. I think I'll just be sticking to the bushings. It's a surprise to me, because I don't have any trouble with my reels that were equipped with bearings at the factory.

[TWBryan]

That's curious,I recall when the 5000 worked it didn't cast too well,unless I oiled the bushings before starting. I never could find ball bearings that fit the spool axle. I think at this point it's missing a steel drag washer and the original handle. At least I haven't come across it yet.I always found it's performance to be a bit less than that of my 5500c3,though to be honest back then the 5500 was new.

Went to polish up the backup 4600 and I was looking at it and it's got bearings in the side-plates,springs, and the main drive gear is gray colored,not brass. Decided not to put the effort into it.Might sell it off too.

Fortunately I have the 4600 I bought earlier this month that was pretty clean inside and out,it has spool bearings,and a brass gear. So I've got it torn apart on the workbench. Just finished up with the side-plate,polished the pins and shafts and the inside of the "brake drum". Stopped for a minute before I proceed with polishing the main gear and shaft. Then I can polish the drive washers... Going to take a bit to get it all done..

[SteelHorseCowboy]

It seems strange to me too. My 5000 with bushings is equal to the 5500C3 I just gave my daughter. I have no trouble with that one, but bearings in my 5000 makes it unmanageable. The Frankenreel has new bearings in the side plates and it tries to overrun sometimes, but it's more manageable due to the sort of fishing I've reserved it for. My 4600RE has old bearings still in good condition and I have no trouble at all with that one either. Once I upgrade the frame to an all steel one and the right plate to one equipped with clutch bearings, I'll be using it to replace my Black Max.

[Pro Reel]

If you're serious about souping that reel up, then you need to check out Jerry Foran's site. His site is hookless.com He has the dual bearing wormgears, but more importantly, he had a custom dual bearing supported cog gear. The cog gear robs more energy from the cast than any other part in an ambassaduer reel. Jerry has a machine shop mill out stock cog wheels to accept 2 high quality stainless bearings. The price is very reasonable.
http://www.hookless.com/index.html

[TWBryan]

Steelhorse, well the 5000 I picked up used and it was always a bit difficult. Perhaps if someone took it and tuned it,added the missing drag washer,it would be a better user. Currently I have 2 4600's and a 5500 that are usable so I don't feel the need to spend any time on the 5000,though I wish I could locate the original handle.

Did some practice casting with the 2nd 4600,retrieve is smooth and easy,casting is the same as before,no gains there. Managed to give myself a backlash that had to be cut out. I have a suspicion the line was twisted and hung up at the moment of release.

I am interested in seeing what improvements,if any,I can get from moving to a dual bearing levelwind assembly. I've also heard it helps if you replace the big plastic gear in the left sideplate with one that has a ball-bearing,I might do that as well.

I rather enjoy fixing and any improvements I can do on the abu garcia reels,I doubt I could do much with the more modern reels though.

Pro Reel,thank you for that link. I like the looks of the dual bearing gear better than the single bearing. I will certainly put him down as a favorable source .

[SteelHorseCowboy]

I was about to point out his link, thought maybe you'd posted before you had a chance to see it!
There is also a really sweet looking ported wheel coming out of Japan I believe. I don't know the quality of the bearings though.



Tomorrow's payday, I may drop you a PM about that 5000. But I do have some expenses and bills to take care of, and had to take some time off, so again, I can't make any promises. I would love to have it though.

[TWBryan]

Steelhorse, I've seen the dual bearing idler gear on a Canadian reel site,maybe Mike's reels? I have it down to get a couple in September. Hoping at that time to wrap up customizing the 4600s. That'll give me two reels specifically for largemouth bass.

I've got a brand new Pflueger President 6935 for tossing weightless plastic baits. I wish I knew if the Pflueger had carbontex drag washers in it. That is the only thing I could think of that  it might need. I'll worry about that after the warranty runs out.

As to the 5000, be careful what you wish for,as I might take the opportunity to stuff a box full of stuff I have lying about and want to get rid of!  . Send a PM if you want to fix it up I might make you a deal on it...

[TWBryan]

The dual bearing levelwind parts will arrive late today and I'll probably pick them up tomorrow. The chinese fishing reel handle has not escaped from the Chicago postal system yet.

Next month might order one of the big plastic idler gears with a ball bearing in it. Is there big difference between using one with a single ball bearing as opposed to one with two ball bearings?

If I was replacing the spool bearings in a reel meant for saltwater,would it be better to have shielded bearings or sealed bearings? Would the hybrid ceramic bearings be the best bet for this?

Thanks for looking.