MICRO GUIDES........

[analfisherman]

Start with Disclaimer:
I don't own a Micro guide system!
I've fished them......saw ZERO advantage........especially in casting distance and that is my understanding why they originally  came out with them. (other than 'LIGHTER'...but how much lighter, from researching we're talking like .005 g per guide....but again, so many guide companies with so many fluctuations in weight/build/materials used.......)

I understand the physics and reasoning of the claim of 'longer casts' with micros.......but I certainly did not see it in real life usage.
I understand the claim of lighter........BUT they are SMALLER....makes sense that they are lighter....but is there a TRUE Advantage in the minimal weight reduction?

Reasons I don't own any:
Northern buddies who used/use them found a real guide ice up problem in cold weather!
If you use a tie on leader of any length....the knot running through the guides actually works AGAINST casting distance.
When first came to the scene the guide inserts seemed to fall out A LOT EASIER than normal guide set ups. ( I know Kigans and others have worked on this challenge and found solutions.....they say anyways)

Soooooooooo.........
1)  Who uses them.......and the MOST important question 'WHY'?
2)  Are there only special' presentations you use them for OR do you use them for everything/anything?  WHY/REASONS?
3)  Have you found one micro brand better than another?     Kegan, Fuji, American Tackle, Pac Bay...... WHY?
4)  Maybe more for the rod builders BUT.......do you get a lot of requests for micros? (many building sites say that Spiral Wrapped rods give you the same advantages without the down falls)
5)  Are there certain lines you like them for/dislike them for?

I've researched rod companies, rod building sites......on and on.
Feel free to say why you do or don't use leaders, especially if you use micros and use leaders on all set ups OTHER than micros........but lets try to avoid this from turning into a 'leader' debate conversation. 

SO LETS HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS MY FRIENDS!!!!!!      (answer ANY parts of the question you want.....don't feel you need to answer ALL PARTS....and ADD any thoughts you want to...the SKYS the limit.......even though in WI. it's starting to FALL. 

[cojab]

I didn't know the advantages or disadvantages to them when I got my first rod with micros. Not sure I know now!
The reason I bought a rod with them was being smaller, I figured they would be less likely to hang up on things in the boat or rod locker and get broken.

[analfisherman]

So cojab.
Do you like it/them?
Does it avoid what you wanted it to avoid better than other rods?
Do you use it often or is it one of the last rods you grab?

Oh and THANKS for the input!

[Lee Smith]

1)  Who uses them.......and the MOST important question 'WHY'?

Use them almost 100%, semi micros though, insert are 4mm not 3.  Weight is my main reasoning, less weight, more eyes, more sensitivity.

2)  Are there only special' presentations you use them for OR do you use them for everything/anything?  WHY/REASONS?

Nope, use them for all, I don't use leaders, so no problem.  If I did, I would still go with the smallest eye I could get away with.  Tip weight is a killer, low guide count is a killer.

3)  Have you found one micro brand better than another?     Kegan, Fuji, American Tackle, Pac Bay...... WHY?

Fuji SIC or Torzite.  Torzite is the cats meow!

4)  Maybe more for the rod builders BUT.......do you get a lot of requests for micros? (many building sites say that Spiral Wrapped rods give you the same advantages without the down falls)

95% of my builds are micro's, 75% spiraled with micro's.

5)  Are there certain lines you like them for/dislike them for?

Nope, good SIC inserts or Torzite inserts work well with all lines.

[cojab]

So cojab.
Do you like it/them?
Does it avoid what you wanted it to avoid better than other rods?
Do you use it often or is it one of the last rods you grab?

Oh and THANKS for the input!

Yes I like them.

They do seem to hang up on things less than the large guides so I would say yes, for my stated purpose they seem better.

For your last question, I only have 5 rods. They are all techniques specific for me. So I grab a rod based on what I'm going to be fishing, not which guides they have! I don't mean that to sound snotty, it's just a fact of how I fish with the equipment I have available.

I am only now upgrading to better equipment that would show the benefits of the micro guides so I could have better input once our water opens up.

[Smallie_Stalker]

I like 'em. For me the biggest improvement so far is that I seem to get less wind knots at the tip when using braid. I don't have even the slightest clue as to why though. 

[Donald Garner]

I only have (2) rods that have micro guides which are my LSCRs.  The only reason they're on there is Lee suggested them     

1.  I like them because > More sensitivity
2.  The rods are > Only used for Flipping and Pitching
3.  Can't answer this question about which guides are better
4.   The only reason I have them on the rods is >  Based on Lee's suggestions I have a Spiral Wrapped  with Micro guides.  The second rod has just Micro guides.
5.  I mostly use Berkley Big Game 20lb Clear Mono.  I have use some braided line a couple times and found that both lines work well on my LSCRs.

[Kris]

I had spoken with my custom rod building Friend about them a couple of years ago and he agreed that he didn't use them.  I believe he uses a 4 or 5 mm guide instead so that you have lest problems with leaders hitting the guides.
I purchased my first rod with micro guides in 2015 and used it for the one Season.  I found out why he doesn't like them with leaders.  I switched to straight braid and that solved the problem.  I have since decided to sell the Falcon Bucoo Micro in favor of other rods.
One other thing that I noticed with the Falcon rod is how easy they can be twisted or knocked out of alignment.  I do own a custom built spinning rod with Microwave guides and absolutely love it.

[FloridaFishinFool]

I purchased my first rod with micro guides in 2015 and used it for the one Season.  I found out why he doesn't like them with leaders.  I switched to straight braid and that solved the problem.  I have since decided to sell the Falcon Bucoo Micro in favor of other rods.
One other thing that I noticed with the Falcon rod is how easy they can be twisted or knocked out of alignment.  I do own a custom built spinning rod with Microwave guides and absolutely love it.

Interesting. I also use the Bucoo micro guide rods, but I spiral wrapped mine myself. One of the things I did not like about the guides Falcon used was how short the guide foot was. So I chose some made by American Tackle because the guide foot is longer and has metal that sticks out so when wrapped the guide is more firmly held in place.



That being said, I use a mixture of micro guides made by American Tackle and Fuji so I get the sleek look I want on my rods. Presently I own around 20 rods with micro guides all spiral wrapped, and just one spinning rod with micro guides and I love them. I would not go back to using regular guides again because they just don't feel right and I also don't like how they look standing up so tall off the rod blank.

1)I use them for increased sensitivity, and casting distance as well as looks. Weight was not an issue compelling any change over to them.
2)I can't say I use them for everything because I have a lot of spinning rods that don't have them, and to date I have not gone crazy putting micro guides on my spinning rods like I have done with all my spiral wrapped bait casting rods.

These days I would not spiral wrap a rod with tall guides. I exclusively use micro guides, some rods have single foot guides all the way, and some rods have mostly single foot guides with one or two double foot guides depending on the rod.

But as far as baitcasting rods, yes I use micro guides on just about any and all of them and I have no concerns about leader knots because I never use any leaders. I gave those up years ago and now it is just straight braid all the way and I love it.

3)No I have not found one brand to be better than another. Some look better than others, and some use better materials than others which affects price more than anything. I don't notice much difference in use or performance between brands.

4)I don't do a lot of rods for others, just for myself only and even then I get backed up. I have more than 6 I am working on right now and maybe I am just slow, but I have reels to work on too, and I just seem to get further behind, but I love it when I get some new rods built the way I want them. But I now only use micro guides unless doing a repair then I match the broken guide to those on the rod.

5)I have been satisfied with titanium oxide guides and braid and Berkley fireline original smoke are really smooth to use. I dislike any clear line and I won't use it. The days of my line looking like a corkscrew are over.

But as for the Falcon Bucoo rods I absolutely love them! I just added another one- the 6' 10" rod- to my collection and before I even used it once off came the stock guides and now it is being fitted with new American Tackle micro guides done in a spiral wrap to go along side the one I did last year. No problem with any twisting guides at all.

Here is my first Falcon Bucoo 7' rod spiral wrapped with American Tackle micro guides. This is one of my favorite rods to use...

[Princeton_Man]

Most of my rods have micro guides. Coincidentally, I consider them to be my most sensitive and best casting rods. Once I met Less Smith and became more edumacated about rods and how the various components worked, I understood better why I like the micro guides.

I'm convinced they improve sensitivity and if kept clean, improve casting. 

[SFL BassHunter]

Read Lee's response, and I'm convinced.

[analfisherman]

Read Lee's response, and I'm convinced.

Well I did read IT.........right after he posted it. 

And a PM I got from LEE this morning............
"Yep, just figured your old, senile and can't member chit     "

What he wanted to say, "You have GOT TO BE the DUMBEST person I ever built a ROD FOR!!!!!!!!!"

My LSCR has,

Spiral Wrapped Torzite semi micros.   

OK, ALL TOGETHER NOW........."WHAT A DUMBA$$!!!!"

After I crawl back out of my HOLE........I'll come back with some thoughts...........IF I REMEMBER. 

[Oldfart9999]

Well I did read IT.........right after he posted it. 

And a PM I got from LEE this morning............
"Yep, just figured your old, senile and can't member chit     "

What he wanted to say, "You have GOT TO BE the DUMBEST person I ever built a ROD FOR!!!!!!!!!"

My LSCR has,

Spiral Wrapped Torzite semi micros.   

OK, ALL TOGETHER NOW........."WHAT A DUMBA$$!!!!"

After I crawl back out of my HOLE........I'll come back with some thoughts...........IF I REMEMBER. 

You may want to quit before you really get behind.
Rodney

[SFL BassHunter]

Well I did read IT.........right after he posted it. 

And a PM I got from LEE this morning............
"Yep, just figured your old, senile and can't member chit     "

What he wanted to say, "You have GOT TO BE the DUMBEST person I ever built a ROD FOR!!!!!!!!!"

My LSCR has,

Spiral Wrapped Torzite semi micros.   

OK, ALL TOGETHER NOW........."WHAT A DUMBA$$!!!!"

After I crawl back out of my HOLE........I'll come back with some thoughts...........IF I REMEMBER. 

Anal you gotta get yourself some "member berries" like the ones from South Park lol.

[West6550]

Well I did read IT.........right after he posted it. 

And a PM I got from LEE this morning............
"Yep, just figured your old, senile and can't member chit     "

What he wanted to say, "You have GOT TO BE the DUMBEST person I ever built a ROD FOR!!!!!!!!!"

My LSCR has,

Spiral Wrapped Torzite semi micros.   

OK, ALL TOGETHER NOW........."WHAT A DUMBA$$!!!!"

After I crawl back out of my HOLE........I'll come back with some thoughts...........IF I REMEMBER. 

LMAO!!!

[rockchalk06]

I bought a few rods several years ago with them when the Micro craze started. I returned them or sold them pretty quickly. I was using leaders back then and hated them.

Fast forward to my first custom build. I didn't pay much attention to the Torzites that Lee recommended on my rod. I seen the videos on them and how much of an improvement they had but still didn't pay attention to the size. When the rod arrived I was kinda miffed. Had no idea they were that small. I was using straight Fluoro for this rod so I got over it knowing I wasn't going to need a leader.

The next rod I knew I had to have them. I can't explain it, maybe Lee can, but the same reel, bait and with similar rod specs, I can cast a jig approx. 5-10 feet further on fluoro and braid.

2 next two builds had them as well as spiral wrapped. I will never again own a rod or have one made that doesn't have Torzites and spiral wrapped guides.

Just wish I would have listened to him on the first build when he wanted to use a PB Blank over a North Fork and spiral wrapping over traditional..........

[FloridaFishinFool]

On the spiral wrapping I will agree, but when it comes to guide choice is where we differ.

Fuji is not the only company to make guides with titanium frames which is 64% lighter than the stainless steel guides no doubt. And stronger.

But honestly, I have never had a problem with using stainless steel guides since most of the guide is buried up to the ring in epoxy anyways, this has very little if any effect on fishing period.

And, since we are talking about so little weight anyways, there is not much weight difference between the two. Put side by side a single rod set of titanium guides (7 average) in one hand and a set of 7 steel micro guides in the other hand and you tell me if you can tell the difference in weight. I can't.

So for this reason I choose the much cheaper steel frame guides. The price difference is significant. Now if you only do one custom rod I can see spending as much as $10 per micro guide, but I do a lot of rods for myself and I can not justify the cost of titanium frames on every rod I do. My price per guide is $1.72 for American Tackle and $1.99 for the Fuji guides I use.

As for the ceramic inserts, that is another matter of preference. I do not use SiC or Silicon Carbide because it just is not worth the price.

Take a read on what someone who makes these guides says about them:

"The Nanolite ring is around 1800 VH just under SiC @ 2200. The ring like SiC, will handle wire line is recreational situations and will certainly stand up to the various super braids. The extra hardness of SiC is just not worth it in our opinion. We could very easily use SiC with these guides but it would increase the price and reduce the durability. The fragile nature of SiC contributes to cracking and ring loss.

The testing on the durability was simple. Our factory which punches both SiC and the Nanolite rings for us in our guide frames see the very apparent differences in ring strength. They tell me the SiC is very brittle and they get a very high breakage rate when punching them into the frame. They tell me the Nanolite ring is extremely strong so much so they were able to reduce the mass of the ring and still come out ahead of SiC in strength. The rings in the Turbo's are our full size rings but still smaller than SiC.

We had the Turbo's wrapped up on a 30 lb graphite blank at the ICAST show. All we had to do was hand the rod to a customer and they were sold. The rod felt like an ultra light. The Titan Turbo's are so light they defy all expectations. They will never rust, they are flexible and best of all the lightest guide ever made in their class.

Warmest regards, Joe Meehan, American Tackle"

And this is another reason I avoid SiC and go with Nanolite. For my spinning rods I buy Titanium Oxide guides because it is harder and slicker than aluminum oxide ceramic.

So honestly SiC does not give any more noticeable performance over other material choices. They all work. They all work well. But do you want a rod with an expensive SiC guide on it that is brittle and could break easily if a rod is dropped? I don't.

I am very happy with my $1.72 American Tackle guides and $1.99 Fuji guides. They work well and I have yet to break any of them.

So when I walk out of MudHole's front door with a baggie full of new micro guides, I am going to do 3 rods in spiral wrapped micro guides for about $40.00. Go with titanium Sic guides and tell me what the price tag will be for 3 rods?

It all boils down to personal preferences and what a person can afford.

[Lee Smith]

nd, since we are talking about so little weight anyways, there is not much weight difference between the two. Put side by side a single rod set of titanium guides (7 average) in one hand and a set of 7 steel micro guides in the other hand and you tell me if you can tell the difference in weight. I can't.

To each his own, that's why they make different colors and different parts.  I ain't been building long, but this vid tells me what I need to know on top of over 85 builds to date with these guides 



Not arguing your point, just saying what I think.  I advise SIC for anyone that is going to use braid, it has just worked better for me, something else may work better for you.

I live in a grey world, Thank the Good Lord! 

[rockchalk06]

^ That was the video link you sent a couple years ago

[analfisherman]

Well Lee, as you know I've watched the video MULTIPLE Times with MULTIPLE QUESTIONS. 

Thanks AGAIN Lee! 

Now for the complaints. 

I JUST SPENT 20 MINUTES WATCHING FUJIS K-CONCEPT...FISHING GUIDE VIDEO......the fluking thing came up right after the link you showed. 

So even though I've made my guide decisions/choices and I WON'T CHANGE THEM , the Wave Guides basically accomplish the same thing...RIGHT?

[Lee Smith]

Well Lee, as you know I've watched the video MULTIPLE Times with MULTIPLE QUESTIONS. 

Thanks AGAIN Lee! 

Now for the complaints. 

I JUST SPENT 20 MINUTES WATCHING FUJIS K-CONCEPT...FISHING GUIDE VIDEO......the fluking thing came up right after the link you showed. 

So even though I've made my guide decisions/choices and I WON'T CHANGE THEM , the Wave Guides basically accomplish the same thing...RIGHT?

NO, you need to look at , , , , ,   

yep, same thang 

[analfisherman]

NO, you need to look at , , , , ,   

yep, same thang 

Good.....now I can crawl back into my hole! 

[FloridaFishinFool]

the Wave Guides basically accomplish the same thing...RIGHT?

It depends on who you listen to. I know some rod building "experts" here in Florida who won't use them.

We have gone over the lengthy physical science as to why. It revolved around wave muting and how much muting should be done in one guide or spread out across the length of the rod as is the standard and has been for decades.

There is a reason why spinning rods traditionally have a large stripper guide and progressively smaller guides to the tip. It is physical science and someone comes along and makes a change that some like and some don't. It boils down to personal preferences.

But if you watched in slow motion the "science" you would see the results. So for myself I have never made to switch over to any micro wave guides on any of my spinning rods and see no reason to do so and I basically live out of MudHole just 10 minutes away and there almost every week. A number of the rod builders I know through MudHole and GetBitOutdoors and others are not sold on the micro wave science.

If you think about it, you know those old Zebco closed face spin cast reels like the 33? The small hole in the front end of the reel housing is doing exactly the same thing as the micro wave guide so the idea has been around for a lot longer than the micro wave guides have been in existence.

Speaking of micro guides, I am on my way down to MudHole for another round of Nanolites! I counted up 8 rods I gotta get working on... Way behind for spring which is coming early around here.

[analfisherman]

Well as I have proven in this thread........"I don't know CHIT"........and what I do know..."I CAN'T REMEMBER!" 

But let me share some thoughts and FACTS anyways. 

First Micro Wave guides video.



Now the Fuji K-R Concept video.    (I know this one is LONG but you will be surprised what you may learn or didn't realize)



Now the K-R has a baitcasting set up too.
First two or three guides are very slightly higher, falling to Micro or Semi Micros but you can look into those.
For this discussion I'll just stay with Spinning Gear.......if someone doesn't want to google and search for Fuji K-R concept CASTING guides, let me know and I'll live link it for you. 

But here is what my understanding is.

Straight Micros setup for spinning gear DOESN'T work well because the inability of the line to go straight down to a guide flush with the first guide (referred to as Stripper Guide or Butt Guide) with out experiencing 'over choking or bunching' of the line, PLUS you experience 'line slap' against the rod itself.

So 'line slap' can also occur if the butt guide is to big(round).......so the best guides would have a smaller butt guide circle.

Now Fuji does this by having the first three guides becoming shorter (closer to rod blank) gradually ending with micros or semi micros guides toward the next guides going towards rod tip.

Wave Guides take the guide height into consideration with the first TWO guides, ending with micros or semi micros going towards the tip BUT actually add a MICRO guide inside the first guide hence only needing TWO guides to accomplish it instead of THREE.

Same basic end result.....less line twist. less line slap, less wind knots AND longer MORE accurate casts along with BETTER hook sets!

Which one is better...........angler must decide that BUT BOTH are a really GREAT idea and EITHER should make using spinning gear more fun with better results.

And in ending, spiral wraps gives an angler the best of both worlds.
All the positive aspects of spinning rods (mostly sensitivity and hook setting along with less twist of the rod blank itself) and the casting control of a baitcaster due to being able to control line output from the reel itself. (thumbing, braking, tension adjustments) 

Bet you wish I would of stayed in my HOLE......DON'T YOU!!!!

[Kris]

Before writing off spinning rod guides, checkout the Microwave Guides.  Originally designed by the Bass Professor, Doug Hannon, they do away with the "Cone" in the line very quickly.  The first guide is the usual larger size but has a smaller guide eye attached by three arms to the front of that frame.  This allows the line to lose the Cone quicker resulting in less chance of hitting the blank and running the line straighterAll of the guides past the first two are the same size.  I have a custom tied spinning rod odownstairs that has them on it.  I know they were purchased through American Tackle.  I am really impressed with the distance without wearing yourself out.  Check out their webpage for a really neat comparison.  https://www.wavespinreel.com Kris