New Format Proposal Discussion Continued!

[BassinColorado]

Chris, these posts of yours represent many that are just reading and not participating.  On the other side, between both of us, we are stirring thoughts in many others that may not agree with one side or the other.  This is importantly good discussion and needs to be happening.

Many guys out there keep calling my new format proposal a "3 tournament format."  Be fair and at least acknowledge that guys can fish 2 of the 3 if they would like to keep things less expensive and still make the team.  It can be a 2 tournament format.  For those that think they wouldn't have the same odds, they have not exactly fathomed what it takes to make the top positions when fishing by points and actually have more chances than a 1 tournament shot.  Your odds are instantly better, because you have more chances to recover. 

Just fishing 2 events could almost lock you in, if you made the top 8 or so, in both of them.  Then things really would depend on how the rest of the guys did in their finishes.  Chances are that you might choose to fish 3 in order to "better your odds."  That would create participation by competition-exactly what we are looking for, I believe.  To fish 3 to better one's odds, again would be "your choice" to spend the extra cash, but the key is that it is not necessary.  A choice to spend that kind of expense would be made by the angler, not the format.

The angler that fishes consistently "well," the better his chances of making the team.  The angler that fishes consistently "great," the better his chances of making the team and going to the National event that year.  How is having to fish "consistently well" considered not a better way to find the stronger fisherpersons for a season over having one lucky tournament?

All you guys that fish these things regularly know that someone always gets lucky in a 1 tournament setup.  Last year it was me.  That does not get, nor does it show us, who the best guys are for the year.  Anything can happen to make someone have a bad day.  No recovery possible with the way it is set up now.  Boaters that ended up in the Non-boater spots this year, would have the chance to move into a boater spot, if they chose, by having other tournament opportunities.  With the 2 out of 3, guys can recover from a bad showing, or even miss one and still show up at the others to prove that they are one of the better guys for that season. 

The philosophy that we need to find "the best" and a one tournament format does that, is totally ridiculous and everyone doesn't believe that format gets "the best."  The format as it sits is comfortable, but not working towards growth.  It doesn't promote participation...period. 

Most guys wanting things to stay the same are doing so for more personal, selfish reasons, not to help the Federation promote participation.  That is ok too, so long as they realize and admit why they want things to be the way they do.  Then they need to take a look at the big picture and see what making a change might do to help the cause, gaining participation in the Federation, and not worry so much about what it will do to their personal agendas for a year.  That is the hurdle we need to hop over as a Federation.  Once we do that, and make our STQT's more user friendly, we will start to gain membership in the Federation and it will be smoother sailing on the other side for everyone involved.

[coloradoman25]

I just dont see it Joe we have simply a difference of opinion.  And I cannot fathom why we would change to a format that the majority doesnt want.

Realistically it is like taking the popular vote and throwing it out the window.  If people wanted it AND saw your side of it we would be doing it already.

I understand it doesnt HAVE to be a 3 tournament format....But I could do pretty well twice and miss tournament 3 and have ultimately flushed my money down the crapper if someone "gets lucky" in tournament 3.  Its the same double edged sword. 

I also believe your participation will dwindle...guys that have done marginal will not be at the 3rd Tx.  You will lose people to time constraints etc.

1 shot is much easier and its the way they do it in the bigs...You have been there...This isnt AOY this is the classic for the state for all practical intents and purposes.


I would also wager that the guys that are making the team are the ones that are consistently at the top of their clubs.  FOR THE MOST PART....

Chime in guys I would think YEARLY club standings would show your consistency.....

[BassinColorado]

I am not sure what the majority really wants, and neither do you.  The majority are rarely heard from.  Usually just the majority of the 3 votes at a BOD meeting that came from the 3 guys that showed up to vote at a club meeting.   

It is time for those that watch to start stepping up and saying something.  Obviously, the stronger leaders in the club take things in any direction they want things to go.  That is all that is left in most club's anyway...the guys that have directed their club's for many years.  You don't see any new names in the leadership roles of clubs implementing their "newer" ideas. 

As you said prior, it starts in the engine room.  Once we grease things back up, and change some parts, hopefully those that have always sat by and let things develop will start speaking out and helping to get things implemented for the better.  We have the guys as members that can make this Federation one of the best in the country.  Time to stand up and help direct things where we want them to go.

In answer to some of your responses;

A) Obama was the popular vote.   You are saying that it must have been the right choice, because it was what the majority wanted.  Or, are you saying it may not have been the right choice, but luckily we can "change it" to make things bettter?  If things get worse after voting in a change (if that is possible-God forbid), we can always vote something just like what we have, back in! 

Time to end the term of the one tournament format, try something else, and see if it helps the Federation growth.  If it doesn't work, we vote something just like what we have back in.   

B) Also, doing well in 2 tournaments and having someone bump you, because "they fished better" in their 2 out of 3 tournaments, is not luck.   That is just the way it goes.  They were more "consistant at fishing well" than you were.  You should have fished better in the 2 you chose to fish.  If you were consistant and didn't make it, then your consistency level isn't good enough to be on the team and you weren't one of the better guys that year.  That is what everyone is saying we need to find, right?  The best guys for that year?   
You better plan on fishing better next year.  If you did make the team the following year, then you got better and isn't that what we are trying to develop and create....The best guys? 

C) The Divisional is actually the Classic for us. That is where the best of Colorado meet up and only one winner moves on.  The STQT is for weeding out who those top representatives will be for that years Classic.  Consistency trumps the one shot deal, as I know that you know that in your guts.

4) The 3rd tournament having a bad representation of members is a theory that has merit, but not as much in a 2 out of 3 format.  The 3 out or 4 format we used at one time, did leave too many openings for folks to know they were in or out by the end of tournament 2.  Thus the bad participation at 3 and worse at the 4th.  Not so much with a best 2 out of 3 format if the lakes are within grasp of the contestants.  Each tournament would be very important to those that attended trying to make the team,  making all 3 tournaments pretty dang important to at least 2/3 of those members competing seriously for the top 12 slots. 

Then we will have the newer guys that will try getting their feet wet with STQTs by attending their first event.  Some of the newer guys will do well after 1 event and stay with it, and some will not do so well and get ready for next year, and try fishing at least 2 of the 3 to better their odds.  I would suspect, that given the opportunity, folks would choose to fish 2 events, one close and one a little farther.  All the tournaments would have importance and the 3rd will probably be a 2nd tournament to many of the attendees, which would change the setting of the theory that the last tournament will be weak in participation.

With the 2 out of 3 format, the options open up, but the regulars will be there, as always.  The payouts and proximity of the tournaments will help keep some of the guys fishing that normally would feel comfortable with their finish in 2 events. 

If we tried this format for a year or two, aside from Chris D. (being he is pretty far away to travel to multiple events and I understand that issue, hoping he can be unbiased with his thoughts on the subject- ), I again ask, "what would be the down fall?"  Less than 30 boats total through all 3 events?  I doubt it. 

What if we had at least 20 boats at every event? (That isn't unreasonable with closer proximity and competitors being competitors)  That would move our participation up to about a 30 boat average for the season, compared to the past events boat counts of 17. 

We would only have to have 10 boats at every event to be where we are right now.  Even if guys only fished one event, we could get more than 10 at every event, I am willing to bet.  Seeing how the only thing we could lose taking this chance is....uh....nothing, yet the possibility of gain, why not give it a shot?

[coloradoman25]

LOL like 9 views and 3-4 are us just talking...So Anyway...

Consistency I understand...But if I take 3rd in tournaments 1/2 which are absolute grinds and I scrape a limit out and cant fish tournament three I sit with a decent amount of points.

Person X does terrible tournament one but takes 4th in tournament 2 right behind me...Then he shows up to tournament 3 where half the guys are there and its an absolute cakewalk fish are jumpin in the boat that makes him more consistent because he gets the win....Not so much in my book.  His points and my points are based off of 2 ENTIRELY different sets of circumstances.  That to me is my BIGGEST issue with a 3 tournament format.  Money and time aside if you cant make all three someone can trump you in potentially "easier" circumstances, which again leads me back to the statement TO HAVE THE SAME CHANCE YOU HAVE TO FISH ALL 3.

As for the popular vote with the last guy that got in on "change"....We as a federation have really seen what change can do for our country...so I am willing to bet we as a federation will suggest you keep the change 

You can say what you want about the "voting majority" but when it comes down to it...if you cant put in time to come to a club meeting or BOD meeting or even participate in these chats to have your voice heard, then I really dont care what you feel.  Bottom line, you dont vote you dont have a right to complain...

Majority is majority Joe.  Whether its 4:3 or 98:2

Now as for me being worried about participating...I already told you if your not in Tx I dont plan on attending.  So if I were you I would start pushing for Havasu      At least people may step up and agree with that  choice.


You know my feelings on this, heck even my closest fishing friend from Colorado is on a different page than I with these feelings.  I can see both sides, but I see and hear what people say over and over...That is the reason they arent in here posting...When it was felt pertinent Alan, and Dave G, and Jeff were here posting.

They dont feel the need to post as they have said their peace and let it be.  I myself just like expressing my opinion and giving the opposing viewpoint.  So I remain.

The federation can do whatever it wishes, but I highly doubt you will see this change enacted.  I have no personal motive here Joe.  Not sure how many times I can say it.  I will wrap my money into something else next season unless you guys come to Tx.  I came to have a good time with some friends, meet up with a buddy and see Table Rock before the open, and experience some new water.  That is why I came to Truman everything else was secondary.

[longdraw]

I don't even know which thread to reply on, lol.

Chris, I never stated that I was in favor of any specific format. I merely stated that we would review the current proposal as a board and then present it to the club.  I said it was the best alternative format I have seen so far, and that it starts to address some of the issues that create the disadvantage non's face in the current format.

I also said that i would not fish a CBF STQT again as a non, no matter the format.

You are correct that it is the responsibility of the non to take advantage of his half up front.  There are other variables that you are neglecting to mention.

1) The Draw
    -everyone knows that the non's success relies heavily on the draw, especially the first day.

2) Mechanical Failure
    -it is the boaters responsibility to have their vessel readied to fish.  While mech. failure is an inherent variable in tournament fishing, it is one that the non has zero control over.

3) Personality Conflict
    -while it is a fact that most boaters do a great job of keeping the non in their plans, it is also a fact that there are boaters that will compete for a spot at any cost, including the success of their non for the day.

You can say, well to eliminate these variables, all you have to do is fish as a boater.  You would be 100% correct, and that is what I will do.  The deal is that nons are needed as much as the boaters both for the STQT(as it is currently formatted) and for the Fed. as a whole. Joe has stated why this is true numerous times previous, no need for me to reiterate.

[coloradoman25]

The draw to me means nothing.  You have 1/2 the day to do just as the boater does.

Mechanical failure can happen to anyone at anytime.  I am sure some take more care than others but I have a boat with less than 100 hours on it that had issues so that can be out of the boaters hands as well.

Personality conflict is what it is.  You can address issues like that at the time of the draw.  Sometimes we need to step up and say that we have a problem with that person.

[longdraw]

That's fine.  The Draw means nothing to you because it doesn't affect you. 

*Let's just say I enter a Tx as a non.  I do extensive homework, have knowledge of the lake and have a plan going into prefish.  My travel partner and I use our plan and find enough productive water for the both of us to be competitive.  Then, day 1 I draw into a boater that has not done his homework, thinks he has water, but really doesn't.  He want's to fish his water, that is a decent run from where my water is.  I sit in the back for the first half and don't do too well.  Neither does he.  1030 comes around and I need to make a decision.  Depending on how far my water is, and how far from the launch his water is and my water is, I may be SOL.

So do you think that I as a non should not do any homework, not find water during prefish?  Maybe the non's should just show up before the P.T. meeting.

Not all boaters are created equal, as are not all non's.

*Let's say it's day 1 and in the first 10 mins on the water I catch a 6.5 but it doesn't fit in my boater's livewell...?  You would probably say, "well that boat shouldn't be in the Tx".  Your are right once again, but it is in the Tx and I am the one who draws it.

*Most non's are not gonna file a protest because they already see the dissention within the Federation and do not want to add to it, or they may just be newer and not want confrontation.

[coloradoman25]

Hmm where to start...

Well its your HALF of the day it takes what it takes to get to your water.  Travel time is a factor for a boater and a non boater..AND SHOULD be factored into your time during the day...IE you get 4 hours start to finish.  This to me is a moot point..IF your not willing to run to your fish because of time constraints well I really dont know what to say.  You have to be confident that you can get what you need done in half a day.  That is how this format is created.  Anything you get on the other persons half should be a bonus.  That is the way I have looked at it.

This is the EXACT same format for the divisional.  If you make the team are you going to complain when your draw wants to fish far from your water.  Boater or not you get 1/2 the day there as well.

As for your draw being a non-factor...Yes its not a factor to me because I am a boater.  That stated 1/2 of the day is YOUR WAY as a non-boater. And if your boater wont yield that and you wont stand up for yourself and protest then its your own problem.  I have yet to hear of a boater that wouldnt follow that regulation.

I have made the mistake of not taking my time or putting my foot down at divisionals.  You know who I have to blame...myself no one else.  Day 3 was a prime example this year.  I took charge did MY thing on MY time and made it happen.  BTW nothing your fishing should be so far in most instances that you cannot get time on your water...Were not fishing the Delta...And bottom line is this is how the sport is played at higher levels; this is the name of the game.

As for the livewell issue...Um...not sure where the heck you would have this problem but there are minimum requirements for the boat to be used in competition.  What boat are you even looking at that would be in this situation because in the 4 years I have fished this tournament I havent seen a single one with wells that arent large enough for fish.

Infact I had a 17' center console that had a single center well and I kept 29lbs between 2 people alive in that well before.  That well was smaller than my wells are by a long shot.

[longdraw]

PM sent about the livewell issue.

So is it your contention that the deck is not stacked at all in favor of boaters at the Qualifying level?  If this is so, then we are wasting our time going back and forth because we cannot agree on that.

[coloradoman25]

Its only stacked IMO if you dont step up and take your time on the boat.  You can flip for time of day and each of you has to factor in run times.  It is 99.9% mental block that hurts co-anglers IMO.  I have been one did it all last year at the opens. 

There are some conveniences that IMO play into part for the boater, but IMO saddling that extra cost you deserve those conveniences.

I think listening to your posts that you need to be a boater, thus your stating you would never be a co-angler in any format.  For me I would instead go as one if 6:6 was the ratio. 

[longdraw]

Just to clarify, co-anglers and non-boaters are 2 different things. Let's not get folks any more confused... (structure/cover flip/pitch)

[skeeter20i]

Longdraw has valid complaints.  Your right Coloradoman, I think the opens have a good boater/coangler format.( Colorado should follow those).  Maybe the more seasoned vets can help me out but I have never seen a non-boater win at divisionals, Sorry take that back but on the Columbia a few years back a co won but he talked all three (sorry 2, day two was canceled) of his boaters into giving up their boats and letting him run his jet boat up the Yak. So in essence he was the boater.  The prof is there if it was a 50/50 split wouldn't you see that in the results?  Maybe, but haven't been fishing that long can anyone chim in with the last maybe 10 years results to look at the statistics. The last 10 years of  Nationals, Divisionals, and Colorado State tournaments should gives us a good look at this subject.  My guess it is heavily skewed in favor of the boaters like Longdraw says.

[vikingbass]

Ok so I will now throw my 2C in the pot...not that it is worth a whole 2 cents but whatever...Yes Chris and I totaly dissagree on this matter... 1st let me point to one fact for you Chris.....you were a non in the opens for a year and each and every week you fished them I hear how your boater screwed you and you hated being in the back and would not do it again, and now you are fishing as a boater in the opens.....nuff said right there my friend....... .....oh but i continue......
I have not and will not attend a STQ as a non boater, will not spend that kind of cash to rely on 3 guys I may or may not know to help me make the team, you can say all you want about that 1/2 day bullsquat but we all know how that works. The only way to make a boater non boater situation work for both parties is if it is a team format... Then the boater and non boater are typically friends who are both in it to make the team and are not competing against one another.....so again that is my 2 cents....for what it is worth....
Todd Gentzel

[Mike Garrett]

Of course the boater has the advantage and nothing we do will change that.  The issue is...are we, as a federation, more interested in fairness to everyone fishing the STQT or more interested in fielding a perceived "best possible team" for the divisional?  Is the STQT the best way to fund the state team?

The present system works...maybe not as well as we would like it to ... but it does work.  The format seems to be what most like.  Perhaps the only reason we are able to get any non-boaters is the chance they (non-boaters) have to fish some quality water.  As some one said..."a guided one week fishing trip".

If my health permits I will continue to make my contribution to the team by going to the STQT IF it is on some great lakes.  I don't think I would want to fish three events on marginal water.  Hell, I'm not even competitive at the club level anymore so I have no expectations of ever making the state team.

[coloradoman25]

Todd is correct I HATED fishing from the back...WHEN I had no say as in the opens.  If HALF the day was mine I couldnt care less.  At least I can somewhat live and die by my own merits.

To me the biggest hangup I have as a nonboater is the want to prefish so I can see what is going on.  That can hurt or help but I did it at the opens and it panned out pretty well for me....

As for fishing behind people...

Amistad day 1 I had 6lb more than my boater (dude was "special") , day 2 I had 14lbs for 3 when by boater had 13 for 5...I tossed back 5 fish that would have but me around 17-18.  Day 3 I had Lee Sisson and my 3 beat his 5 by 4 lbs.

Red River I never really had much of a shot at the water I had fished...and the only hits I had day 1 I blew save for one dink, day 2 the only hit me or my boater had was a blow up on a frog in which my boater fired right backwards over me immediately...He caught that one..>I didnt make day 3...However the guy I turned onto my pattern and prefished "with" took my baits and made a top 15 finish.  So I am confident on that one lol.

Texoma Day 1 I had 1 fish and caught about 394 shorts behind Cody Bird.  he had 2 fish I believe.  Day 2 I fished with a friend I had 2 fish for 4 or 5 and he had one for 3lbs.  Day 3 I fished with the winner of the Centrals last year and basically sat back out of his way and barely fished out of respect to what he was trying to do.  I would hope if I am ever in that position I am treated the same.

Point being....I did it BEHIND them came in in the top 30 out of like 300 for the year BEHIND the boater and made 2 of 3 cuts...and had I not lost the fish I did it would have been 3 of 3.  It can be done....I did it behind 3 elite/flw pros and only my friend really helped me to get onto fishable water.

But the opens is a whole nother world....Your not in the same tournament as your boater...your also at the same disadvantage as every other co.  No one is on the front, and technically speaking no co is supposed to get much of a say.

We are however fishing for THE SAME prize at the qualifier and that same format plays through divisionals...Which is WHY I feel the format is being done ultimately to the benefit of the anglers at hand.

Again JMO.

BTW since were talking the opens...I suck so far lol

[BassinColorado]

Sounds kind of like a silent argument going on for the 6 and 6 split to help gain participation, to me.   

Guys, facts are that changing the format to a 2 out of 3 would not hurt anything.  It can't!  Why not try it just to see if there is something there that helps the Federation?  We have nothing at all to lose and much to gain if it works.  If it doesn't work, it will not be a worse situation.  We just find something else or go back to what we have now. 

Heck, I volunteer to run it all.....the main tournaments, point systems, side pots, the whole thing.  I am sure I could get great help from guys around the state, if it was voted in.  It would actually be fun to coordinate and to watch the "new generation" of Colorado fishermen start to emerge.

PS----Chris still says a guy would have to fish all 3 to have the same chances, but that is based on his scenario of worse case.  What if a guy fishes 2 tournaments and wins them both?  Does he have to fish all 3 to have the same chance to make the team?  See... it is all in the scenario.  Let things play out as they happen and let guys do what they think they need to do to make the team in a 2 out of 3 type of format.  It makes it more challenging, yet lets a guy do what is best for his time and finances.

No one controls their own destiny in this format, "unless they total bring it and place decently at each event. "  You are forced to fish better, which is what we want, by the posts I have read.

[Allen]

Holy heck, we still beating this horse up?  This is the feeling I get from new format.