Thought on Baitcaster Gear Ratio

[greenpig]

hi,forum
How about changing gear ratio by moving(changing its position & distance) reel knob?
that'll change the numbers of spool rotation on 1 handle turn.
so gear ratio changed by that.

knob can move its arm way by pushing opposite button first(unlock) and pull knob a bit.
that release knob and move its way to desired.

both knobs don't have to be simutanously changed since adjusted differently have more choice

of different use of handle turn ratio.

[FD]

Interesting idea but that doesn't change the gear ratio.  Still the same inches of retrieve per handle turn.  What you're changing is the apparent effort to turn the handle.

[Pferox]

Check out Alvey reels, they have models that have knobs different distances from the center of the spool for different retrieving speeds. They are a little unconventional to us, but from what I understand were big time in Australia.

[J.W.]

hi,forum
How about changing gear ratio by moving(changing its position & distance) reel knob?
that'll change the numbers of spool rotation on 1 handle turn.
so gear ratio changed by that.

Ok, I am NOT an engineer, so I may be completely wrong here, but this is how my feeble brain is processing this:

Changing the distance between the handles will not change the number of rotations of the spool per handle turn. It will change the distance (circumference of the handle's turn) your hand has to travel, which can't affect the internal gear ratio of the reel, but I think it would affect your "final drive ratio," if you will. Kind of like changing tire diameters on your truck. What I mean by "final drive ratio" is the ratio of how much line you retrieve per turn to how far your handle has to travel to make that turn. 

So using a Daiwa Tatula SV 70 with a gear ratio of 7.1:1 as an example of how I'm thinking about it (which could be wrong):

Reel handle is 90 mm = 3.54".
Each handle revolution retrieves 26.3" of line. That means for every 26.3" of line retrieved, your handle travels a distance (circumference) of 11.12", because C = (pi)x(diameter):
C = (3.14)(3.54), C = 11.12".
IF you take line retrieved per turn (26.3") divided by distance the handle travels per turn (11.12"), you get a "final drive ratio" of 2.37:1.

If you do the same math with the same reel, but in a 8.1:1 ratio (which retrieves 30" of line per turn), you get a "final drive ratio" of 2.70:1, (30 divided by 11.12).


So if you want to change handle diameter to make that particular 7.1:1 reel achieve the same final drive ratio of a 8.1:1 reel, you'd have to change your reel handles from 3.54" to about 3.10".

Now even IF that's right (big IF), I'm still not sure if it amounts to a hill of beans in the real world because you've also got variables like the way reel handle length affects mechanical advantage, ergonomics, "input speed" of the angler, etc, etc. Plus the fact that the amount of line retrieved per turn is never changed kind of bothers me. Seems like changing handle diameter to something a little larger might give you some leverage, but past that I'm not sure if the juice would be worth the squeeze. I could be completely wrong though.

I think if you really want to investigate it, you'd have to play with some different reel handle lengths and just see if it makes a discernible difference.

[D.W. Verts]

Too complicated for old fat guys. I still use my old 4600's with 5:1 ratios. Every. Single. Trip.

Dale

[Apoc81]

hi,forum
How about changing gear ratio by moving(changing its position & distance) reel knob?
that'll change the numbers of spool rotation on 1 handle turn.
so gear ratio changed by that.

Ok, I am NOT an engineer, so I may be completely wrong here, but this is how my feeble brain is processing this:

Changing the distance between the handles will not change the number of rotations of the spool per handle turn. It will change the distance (circumference of the handle's turn) your hand has to travel, which can't affect the internal gear ratio of the reel, but I think it would affect your "final drive ratio," if you will. Kind of like changing tire diameters on your truck. What I mean by "final drive ratio" is the ratio of how much line you retrieve per turn to how far your handle has to travel to make that turn. 

So using a Daiwa Tatula SV 70 with a gear ratio of 7.1:1 as an example of how I'm thinking about it (which could be wrong):

Reel handle is 90 mm = 3.54".
Each handle revolution retrieves 26.3" of line. That means for every 26.3" of line retrieved, your handle travels a distance (circumference) of 11.12", because C = (pi)x(diameter):
C = (3.14)(3.54), C = 11.12".
IF you take line retrieved per turn (26.3") divided by distance the handle travels per turn (11.12"), you get a "final drive ratio" of 2.37:1.

If you do the same math with the same reel, but in a 8.1:1 ratio (which retrieves 30" of line per turn), you get a "final drive ratio" of 2.70:1, (30 divided by 11.12).


So if you want to change handle diameter to make that particular 7.1:1 reel achieve the same final drive ratio of a 8.1:1 reel, you'd have to change your reel handles from 3.54" to about 3.10".

Now even IF that's right (big IF), I'm still not sure if it amounts to a hill of beans in the real world because you've also got variables like the way reel handle length affects mechanical advantage, ergonomics, "input speed" of the angler, etc, etc. Plus the fact that the amount of line retrieved per turn is never changed kind of bothers me. Seems like changing handle diameter to something a little larger might give you some leverage, but past that I'm not sure if the juice would be worth the squeeze. I could be completely wrong though.

I think if you really want to investigate it, you'd have to play with some different reel handle lengths and just see if it makes a discernible difference.

No, Mathematically this just doesn't make sense. One turn is one turn. My salt water TranX400hg has a regular handle and a cranking handle, its longer, but it doesn't change retrieval, one turn is 7.1:1, period. The only way to change the gear ratio is by changing the gear. If one turn is 30" retrieval with a 4 inch handle, one turn is 30 inches with a 10 foot handle.

The only thing changing is radius your hand moves in, so yes, you could retrieve slower, but you can also do that by, well, retrieving slower.  Both ways, you still get the same retrieval per turn, and we aren't actually nearly as good at steady retrieval as we think we are. Our hand speed changes throughout the rotations based on hundreds of factors, not just the geometry of the handle and final gear ratio.

[J.W.]

No, Mathematically this just doesn't make sense. One turn is one turn. My salt water TranX400hg has a regular handle and a cranking handle, its longer, but it doesn't change retrieval, one turn is 7.1:1, period. The only way to change the gear ratio is by changing the gear. If one turn is 30" retrieval with a 4 inch handle, one turn is 30 inches with a 10 foot handle.

The only thing changing is radius your hand moves in, so yes, you could retrieve slower, but you can also do that by, well, retrieving slower.  Both ways, you still get the same retrieval per turn, and we aren't actually nearly as good at steady retrieval as we think we are. Our hand speed changes throughout the rotations based on hundreds of factors, not just the geometry of the handle and final gear ratio.

Man, I think we're saying the same thing. At least for the most part. And, yeah, I'm not 100% sure if that math is right, so take it for what it's worth. I definitely could have overlooked something.

What I'm saying is that one turn of the handle is still one turn of the handle, and still retrieves the same amount of line per turn. If the denominator is "per turn," handle size is not going to change anything. The way I was looking at it is inches of line retrieved per inch of handle knob travel.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you rigged up an electric motor (with constant rpm) to turn different handle lengths on the same reel, I think you would see a difference in speed of line retrieval. Line per turn is still the same, but line per second would not be, because the path the knob has to travel is being changed. I just think with a human turning the handle instead of a motor, the change is going to be negligible and outweighed by all the other factors involved. I think your experience with the different handle styles on one reel is pretty good evidence that if you're trying to change line speed by changing handle size, the juice isn't worth the squeeze unless you're just trying to add leverage with a longer handle. It might even be that the added leverage of a longer handle allows you to turn a longer handle faster than a shorter one. I wouldn't be shocked if it did. 

All that is just to say that, personally, if I want a fast reel I'm buying a 8:1 and if I want less speed and more torque I'm buying a 5:1 or 6:1, and not screwing around with handle lengths to get there.

[Dog]

The way I see it. it will not change gear ratio but look at the handle as a lever on a fulcrum. the farther out you go from the center (fulcrum) the less force is required to turn it. the closer you get to the center the more force you will need to turn the handle.
So moving the knobs out farther on the handle will just make it easier to crank.

[Mike Cork]

Dog's description/explanation is spot on.

It would seem that a larger handle would change the gear ration, however if you can mentally mark a spot on the drive gear (which is attached to the same shaft as the handle) in relation to the handle, it will line up no matter the position of the handle.

Changing handle size is solely a matter of comfort for the angler. As Dog said, you can apply more force with a larger handle, to a point that is.

There have been reels on the market that actually have multiple drive gears in them and with the flip of a switch you can change which one works with the pinion gear. This is a very complicated reel to work on  but they are out there.

[Apoc81]

No, Mathematically this just doesn't make sense. One turn is one turn. My salt water TranX400hg has a regular handle and a cranking handle, its longer, but it doesn't change retrieval, one turn is 7.1:1, period. The only way to change the gear ratio is by changing the gear. If one turn is 30" retrieval with a 4 inch handle, one turn is 30 inches with a 10 foot handle.

The only thing changing is radius your hand moves in, so yes, you could retrieve slower, but you can also do that by, well, retrieving slower.  Both ways, you still get the same retrieval per turn, and we aren't actually nearly as good at steady retrieval as we think we are. Our hand speed changes throughout the rotations based on hundreds of factors, not just the geometry of the handle and final gear ratio.

Man, I think we're saying the same thing. At least for the most part. And, yeah, I'm not 100% sure if that math is right, so take it for what it's worth. I definitely could have overlooked something.

What I'm saying is that one turn of the handle is still one turn of the handle, and still retrieves the same amount of line per turn. If the denominator is "per turn," handle size is not going to change anything. The way I was looking at it is inches of line retrieved per inch of handle knob travel.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you rigged up an electric motor (with constant rpm) to turn different handle lengths on the same reel, I think you would see a difference in speed of line retrieval. Line per turn is still the same, but line per second would not be, because the path the knob has to travel is being changed. I just think with a human turning the handle instead of a motor, the change is going to be negligible and outweighed by all the other factors involved. I think your experience with the different handle styles on one reel is pretty good evidence that if you're trying to change line speed by changing handle size, the juice isn't worth the squeeze unless you're just trying to add leverage with a longer handle. It might even be that the added leverage of a longer handle allows you to turn a longer handle faster than a shorter one. I wouldn't be shocked if it did. 

All that is just to say that, personally, if I want a fast reel I'm buying a 8:1 and if I want less speed and more torque I'm buying a 5:1 or 6:1, and not screwing around with handle lengths to get there.

Yeah, I think I may have misunderstood some of your original post.

And im a gear junkie, so im definitely buying the faster AND slower reels 😂