Thought on Knot Wars

[Ron Fogelson]

When Damon is in the back of the boat and see's me get ready,,,,,, He yells "PULL!" and ducks 

[-Shawn-]

I have watched that 929 rock and roll when you set the hook.   

[bass1cpr]

   I havent' watched it but I've heard about it. Something about play nice or die.

[bass1cpr]

   Coldfront I know you really like to think things thru that's just your style and I'm not knocking it. Sometimes it really helps. I'm more hands on and practical and may be satisfied with simpler solutions if they work. We each have our own style. You can always come up with good one's "Quantifiable" I like that one. I don't know to many Paul Bunyon type's but I do know some big un's, and I understand your arc and distance referance. But I'm still not swayed yet.
   
   Shawn I know we have some state of the art equipment today but I'm not sure that really changes his statement. Shawn your comparison of the rod bend when swinging a fish has more to do with the motion were using we are trying to avoid putting extra stress on the line and rod to keep form loosing the fish. Me personally I don't swing five pounders as more of the stress is focused at the top of the rod we've usually changed our grip when we do that. I'm still waiting to be swayed.

Fogy that's a viking spring scale if the brand helps.

[Ron Fogelson]

Fogy that's a viking spring scale if the brand helps.

Thanks I think a few things we would have to set up to get a over all picture of this test would be;

Use a few different rods with each test
Use Mono, floro and braid
Use a 1lbs weight, 3lbs weight, 5lbs weight and maybe 7/8/ or even a 10lbs weight.
Do all the tests from a depth of 1,2,4,6,10 foot and than what ever the deepest part of the pool is.

The only thing to start off would be to keep the angler the same, once we had some info we could redo some/all the tests with a differnt angler to see what if any changes we find.

If all I can manage is a 4lbs rating on the scale I'll send you my Dobyn's flipping rod 

[bass1cpr]

    wow there's some confidence but I'd never hold you to that. I just wouldn't feel wright.

   I have an e-mail out and am waiting on a response. It's one that I think could possibly sway me. Really I'm hoping they side with me.    Well see.

[Ron Fogelson]

    wow there's some confidence but I'd never hold you to that. I just wouldn't feel wright.

Never lacked that over my life 

[coldfront]

two things Ron...

1.  do the test 'in air' as well...
2.  get someone set up to videotape this...you never know what's going to happen...and I just want to see evidence of you boatflipping a 5# weight out of 10 feet of water on the 'set'...



cool idea/project!

[mauro]

Honestly I do not give much credit to the entire knot wars segment other than to see new knots.   Unless the method behind the test is clearly defined and includes a sufficiently large sample set to reduce variance, it's inconclusive and misleading.   One iteration of a test of a  human performed action is of no value scientifically and is frankly uninteresting to watch.

[-Shawn-]

I am waiting on the Email too Tom.  It is going to have to be a good one to convice me that I am only generating 4 lbs on hookset.     I just can't see any way that with braid I am generating more than for pounds. 

With a locked down drag I slip it on hookset. It takes 10lbs to do that.

Now I could see where it would only TAKE 4 lbs of pressure to do the job. But i am positive I am giving way more than what it requires. 

[bass1cpr]

   Shawn in Trokars penetration graph they are only using grams of pull to penetrate their medium. I don't know what that was and I'm sure it's a marketing thing to get us to think it only takes 60 grams of pressure to make penetration. No where did I see anything that said they replicated a fishes mouth. I'm just using this as an example in no way am I implying anything bad about Trokars. The medium was the same for all hooks or (did Trokar go last and get used medium)    I can't wait to get to use the ones I won here.

[-Shawn-]

Well my on the water test went bad, the only fish that cooperated bit a Poisontail jig and didn't give me time to add a springscale. 

[bass1cpr]

   At least you got to get on the water.

[DBrooke]

What is this water you speak of?

[bass1cpr]

   OK finally got a reply from my e-mail. It gives a scenario to test the force of a hook set but I think the scale idea is still a good way to check. I also think that maybe the weight should be suspened on a buoy to better simulate a fish in water. But here's the e-mail.

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for the email.

A maximum of four pounds of force on a hook set regardless of size is obviously not correct, however there are limiting factors that control the force that can be achieved.

The first limiting factor is the pound test of the line. If the breaking strength of a line is 10 pounds, there are no circumstances under which more than 10 pounds force can be generated at the tip of the hook. In fact when you take line stretch into consideration, the force will be lower because some of the initial impulse energy is consumed in stretching the line.

Energy is also lost in bending the rod. If a fisherman can generate 10 pounds at the tip of a very stiff rod (think broomstick), the force generated with a normal rod will less than 10 pounds by the amount of force required to bend the rod.

Another limitation is the strength of the angler.

Something to keep in mind is that the penetrating power of hook isn't measured in pounds of force, it's measured in pounds per square inch, Because Trokar hooks have a smaller cross-sectional area than conventional hooks, it's possible to generate more pounds per square inch with the hook set. Add to this the three cutting edges on a Trokar, and you have a much faster setting hook at any given force.

Back to the 4 pound maximum force comment. That's probably not a bad guess for someone fishing with a typical 6 1/2 foot freshwater spinning rod. It's relatively easy to measure for any given setup. Tie a weight to the end of fishing line, simulate a hook set, and see how much weight you can lift off the ground. The maximum you can lift during the simulated hook set is the maximum force you can generate.

Then try the same test with a tuna stick and 80 pound braid...


   I think the door is still open and can't wait tfor the water to thaw out.

[Fish-N-Fool Lures]

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[Fish-N-Fool Lures]

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[bass1cpr]

   Fnf just in case you didn't read the whole thread it was Guido Hibbdon that said no one can generate more than four pounds of force on a fish with a hook set. If you've ever met Guido and talked to him one thing you will learn is he is a salesman deluxe.
   Braided line may be the exception but I still say were not generating the power we think we are.
   I've launched lots of small fish and in all the fishing I've done and all the TV shows watching pro's I've never seen one launch a two pounder over the boat on the hook set.
   Fogy say's he launches 3 to 5 pounders and I've heard he's got a boat rocking hook set. 
   I"m just saying prove Guido wrong. And if ya got video of launching a two pounder over the boat I want to see it.

[Ron Fogelson]

   Fogy say's he launches 3 to 5 pounders and I've heard he's got a boat rocking hook set. 

Did not   

Not sure I buy a max of a 4lbs hook set, broke to many fish with 12lbs/15lbs line over this years on a hook set and have had 2 & 3lbs fish learn to fly while in shallow water LOL

[bass1cpr]

   Sorry my bad Fogy.    See how stories get blown out of proportion. 

[bass1cpr]

   Fishin N Fool I had posted your knot was the winner in knot wars not questioning it. 
   I threw in a statement that Guido had made and with all of his years of experience I'm thinking he's wright.
   I don't think most knots fail on the hook set I think they fail after the hook set when everything is loaded. The knots that do give on the hook set are usually not tied wright and there is usually a little tell tale curly ques at the end of your line when you get it back.
   I don't have a tuna rod with 80 pound braid on it and most of us don't fish with pool ques any more. So I still say prove Guido wrong. I think a dry land test adds friction to the equasion and it needs to be done in water and I think the wight needs to be suspended to simulate a fish.

[-Shawn-]

I don't have Videos, but I do have a Witness.   

My wife gets upset when a 16 inch fish hits her in the head. 

There are so many variables involved in a Hookset that ( and I mean NO disrespect to MR Hibdon)  But there is No way that a blanket statement like that can be 100% true. It is just not possible.

I can't launch a fish using a medium rod.( I really am not sure because I would never use a medium rod in a situation that I would be launching a fish)  But with a heavy Rod I can launch one almost on command from less than 4 ft of water. Tends to happen more in Lakes that I know have a HIGH population of bigger fish, Because I use more power when I know I have only one chance to get them out of the brush. 

Maybe I am different than alot of angler in that I don't use a gorilla hookset when fish are in fairly open water, Just a snap set.( really wth Braid and a Quality hook this set will penetrate any fish's mouth)   but if I am flipping brush I use a whole body set. I want the hook to set and the fish to come to me all at one time.  If the fish happens to be 1 lb, he usually becomes a bird.   

I can definately see where there could be No more than 4lbs of pressure applied to a hookpoint before it penetrates, but once the hook is in the force is still building against the hook bend.