Started this thread so we can talk about the working end of the line.
There are tons of variants on basically two bottom rigs to get the job done. The first and probably simplest one is the Carolina Rig, salty guys call it a fish finder rig.
The more common one used in the actual surf for some obvious reasons is the Dropper rig, which can be single or double, or more even.
The sink rate of fluorocarbon has little effect when talking about surf fishing, just so you know. Its abrasion resistance is the main reason for using it.
Couple of things, lines above 30 lbs become a PIA to tie. Fluorocarbon must be well lubed when you cinch it down. Make sure you don't cross the wraps even in the swivel when tying because that is where the knot will fail. Unlike freshwater fishing, leave a little longer tag end.
Using a lighter to melt the tag end a little then pressing on the soft end to make a little bulb can save your butt if the knot slips.
You will find that fluoro will start to get expensive after a while, just an FYI. I don't see much difference between that and mono in the heavier weights for the fish I catch, you might though, dunno.
What about rigs for artificials?
That is a whole different rod. Most guys working the surf with arties are using slightly heavier duty bass gear, either baitcasters or spinning, because it has to be a lot lighter to cast multiple times during a day. At least around here, not sure what they are doing your way exactly.
Usually they are just tossing line and maybe a heavier leader or wire for little toothy critters, and the lure. Many are up to their chest in the surf doing this, btw. And are usually targeting smaller fish compared to what you can hookup with long casts. They are also set up so that if a shark of interesting size bites, it takes the lure and goes, game over.
Y'all keep it up, I'm learnin' stuff and I like it ;D ~read
I'm almost done here with all my questions. This is probably the last one (you're probably thinking "thank god") haha. So, what exactly is the bead for on rigs?
There is a guy that fishes RollOver pass that only uses lures, and holds or has tied a couple world records of some bigger fish from what I understand.
I posted a little about him here. http://www.ultimatebass.com/bass-fishing-forum/index.php?topic=120117.0 (http://www.ultimatebass.com/bass-fishing-forum/index.php?topic=120117.0)
All of his rods are modified fly rods around 8 to 10 feet long, and he uses A LOT of 6lb braided line. He uses a double jig rig usually and bounces it or swims it across the pass.
Even though the rod is long, the whole combo is pretty light and can make a lot of casts in a day. He ties the jigs on with 20lb floro usually, and only uses one swivel. Don't know how that rig would work in the surf, but it is more than doable, one of these days I am going to build one and try to get proficient with it.
I am pretty sure that his whole rig he is casting out weighs less than an ounce, what gives him the big distance is the rod length, flexibility, and super light line. Bringing in the fish takes patience, good drag, and a lot of runs to tire out the fish.
Quote from: Lee Smith on April 10, 2015, 03:11:22 PM
Y'all keep it up, I'm learnin' stuff and I like it ;D ~read
Me too Lee. I filled up a couple of pages of a notebook just from reading the BAIT thread. Before long these guys are going to have me buying a reel for the one saltwater rod I own and start trying some of this stuff. I don't live but about a 10 minute walk to the Atlantic. ~b~
Quote from: Smallie_Stalker on April 10, 2015, 03:54:27 PM
Me too Lee. I filled up a couple of pages of a notebook just from reading the BAIT thread. Before long these guys are going to have me buying a reel for the one saltwater rod I own and start trying some of this stuff. I don't live but about a 10 minute walk to the Atlantic. ~b~
I'd be there almost every day. We are trying to find a place closer to the shore now, especially now since I'm not going to be able to go back to work. Only problem is that now fishing funds are a lot shorter too. :'(
When I lived in Hull I lived about 100 feet from the shore of a little bay and I never once got a line wet. In fact, since I moved south of Boston 24 years ago I have lived on or near the ocean shoreline most of the time. I don't know why I never fished any of it. Just didn't seem to interest me at the time. But as I get older I find that I want to try different types of fishing and fishing for different species. Living so close to the salt I guess that is a good place to start.
Don't forget, even when surf casting, you can still fish your bait near the surface. Usually, because of styrofoam floats/balloons/flashers, you lose a little distance in your casting, but it does give you a whole new group of fish to catch...albacore, mackerel, and bluefish.
Plus, with a balloon, if the current is going out, you can cast, leave your bail open, and let the current drag your bait out further.
Quote from: BenFishing on April 10, 2015, 04:15:55 PM
Don't forget, even when surf casting, you can still fish your bait near the surface. Usually, because of styrofoam floats/balloons/flashers, you lose a little distance in your casting, but it does give you a whole new group of fish to catch...albacore, mackerel, and bluefish.
Plus, with a balloon, if the current is going out, you can cast, leave your bail open, and let the current drag your bait out further.
That is true, I always forget to mention that because around here we are usually so shallow that a double rig will almost cover the whole water column, and no matter what the tide is, the currents tend to push towards shore.
I was casting a long single drop rig once, with cut mullet on the hook, I looked and the dang bait was floating like a topwater lure. :o
Quote from: Pferox on April 10, 2015, 04:21:51 PM
I was casting a long single drop rig once, with cut mullet on the hook, I looked and the dang bait was floating like a topwater lure. :o
Cutting edge stuff, right there....Using the swim bladder as a float ;D
Yea, but I don't think it was on purpose. lol.
I did float fish a lot on the Sunshine skyway, it was a great way to work baits out a long ways from where you were at.
Quote from: Smallie_Stalker on April 10, 2015, 04:15:24 PM
When I lived in Hull I lived about 100 feet from the shore of a little bay and I never once got a line wet. In fact, since I moved south of Boston 24 years ago I have lived on or near the ocean shoreline most of the time. I don't know why I never fished any of it. Just didn't seem to interest me at the time. But as I get older I find that I want to try different types of fishing and fishing for different species. Living so close to the salt I guess that is a good place to start.
I would, what are the specks on that rod you have? Maybe we can look into a good starter reel for it. :-*
I had to dig it out of the back of a closet where I keep older rods. It's nothing fancy. It is a 2 piece Ugly Stick Big Water rod.
Model BWS 1100. It is 8' long and it says Line Weight 10 - 25 lbs Lure Weight 3/4 - 3 oz.
Through my association with Pure Fishing I can buy one Penn Reel per year at a really good discount. But just to start out I may not need to go that fancy. So any recommendations would be great.
I have two of those exact same rods in 7 foot here, they are casting fools with about an ounce and a half on em. Great pier rods. Just clean the salt off of the guides once a year or so.
Actually, a Penn Pursuit II in about 5000 or 6000 would be awesome on that rod. I have a few of them and although they aren't HT100 drags, they are quite nice.
Another reel to look into is Quantum Optix 60 reel. They are cheap BEASTS, only drawback to them is that if you rinse them down you have to take the drag knob and spool off and let them dry out. When you first get them, you need to put a coating of grease on the shaft that the spool goes through to keep it from rusting.
Another one that is a fantastic reel from what I heard, but it is left hand retrieve only is the Daiwa DF100A. That thing is cheap and huge. With it being left hand retrieve only, I can't use it, otherwise I would have one or three on a few rod.
I would have suggested a 4000 reel and braid in that length, but that is a pretty heavy rod, and you would be better off with the larger reel to balance it out.
Fill it with some 20 or 30 lb mono and you would be smoking very cheaply. Big Game, Ande, Cajun, CXX, Siege just about any of the stiffer, or harder monos will work.
Man, my wife would kill me if I had a deal like that with Penn, I would be decked out in all kinds of bling.
Quote from: Trigger3lite on April 10, 2015, 03:32:41 PM
I'm almost done here with all my questions. This is probably the last one (you're probably thinking "thank god") haha. So, what exactly is the bead for on rigs?
OK, I found it. (from the other thread) To be honest, you are just starting. Just wait until you actually cast a line. ;)
Beads do a lot of things, they act as spacers, visual attractors (depending on color), a few of them together act as a sound attractor, (when they clack together they sound like shrimp), and they act as knot protectors sometimes. It all depends on the rigs.
In the double rig I showed in a picture around here somewhere ::) they are actually acting as ball bearings for the swivel so it can move freely without putting any wear on the line. That double rig is a whole bunch of science, and design, I'll tell you. (insert patting on own back smilie)
Thank you. I will look into them all. Left hand is the only way I roll spinning or otherwise, so they will all fit the bill. :)
Ya know, I ought to just start a PFEROX BABBLES thread. ~roflmao
There is a lot I don't know about wire leaders, but let me share the little I do know.
There are basically three kinds of metal leaders, solid wire, stranded, and tieable stranded. OH yea a fourth one, winch cable.
Solid wire is good stuff, it is pretty flexible, easy to do connections without crimps, just a haywire twist, I think the knot is called and it is good to go. Only problem is that is it worse than fluoro when it gets a kink. It is guaranteed to separate on the next thought of a fish. I actually carry some with me all the time (better check my tackle bag now) because it is a quick and easy way to get a wire leader in a pinch. I usually use a non flashy color and put that on when I'm into Mackerel heavy.
Stranded leaders come in coated and uncoated, they are quite flexible, and is my choice when I pre make wire rigs, which I haven't done in quite a while. They don't work well with aluminium crimps because of hydrolysis. They hold up well to just about all but the biggest toothy critters, and will hold up to them if you use a heavy enough one. I'm just too cheap when I can make heavy mono leaders to do the same job at a fraction of the cost, although mine can fail with mid sized toothy critters.
Tieable stranded leaders are new to me, although they have been around a while. I actually haven't tried to work with these, although I would like to, maybe even change from the solid wire stuff to this stuff in my tackle bag, I'll have to check my bag to see if I need some.
Then there is winch cable, they are strong, stiff, and crimped with pipe, I think, never had the equipment to work with that stuff, so am not real familiar with it.
You can kind of think of them like braid is they are much thinner for their break strengths than the equivalent mono or fluoro and they are very difficult to bite through.
What crimp size should I get for 0.81 mm?
Quote from: Trigger3lite on April 11, 2015, 10:46:42 AM
What crimp size should I get for 0.81 mm?
To be honest, I haven't a clue. Probably a crimp with that size ID, or a bit larger, I would guess. Probably a #5 I would suppose. Need to cross reference the manufacturer of the leader with the size they suggest on their website.
One of the reasons I buy kits usually, don't have to think about it. ~roflmao
I figured out what size I needed, it was in the specifications the whole time. ~b~
Anyway, I think I have everything I need besides the hooks, sinkers, and beads which I'm planning to buy from my local tackle shop because it's cheaper. Also going to use my cooler as a tackle box for now. I'm not sure about the finger protection, they might or might not have it. Might use gloves for now because it's cold anyway. Am I missing anything? Also, would the ugly stik be able to handle big fish?
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For the salt fishing I do with baits, I primarily use two basic rigs. One is the fish finder rig that Jim mentioned, it's a sliding rig with a float on the leader that keeps the bait off the bottom, and only has a single hook. The other is the top & bottom rig, and I like what they call a Tennis Cord Top & Bottom rig. This is a heavy duty rig, that keeps the hook leaders away from the main line. It's a very good rig for fishing from a boat or a pier, and is primarily something you're going to be fishing vertically. So, all you do is bait the hooks & drop it straight down. If you use the correct amount of weight, it takes it to the bottom & you can feel it when it bumps the bottom. Too much weight makes it more difficult to feel the bites. I also like to use hooks & leaders that have a few beads and a spinner attached. IMO, the spinner blade will add some extra attraction to draw the fish to the baits particularly since this type of fishing is almost always done where there will be some current.
A lot of the ready made hooks that have spinners also have red beads with them, but since I like to make my own, I use beads of various colors. Red has it's place, but I like chartreuse & pearl too, and sometimes even black seems to produce well. :)
Yes a silver spinner would be good because the primary bait-fish in my area is the Atlantic Silverside. I'll try out your rigs, I like the sound of that Tennis Cord Top & Bottom rig. Hopefully I'll get to fishing soon.
I mentioned those Tennis cord rigs because I've found them to hold up much better than a lighter type, like is often used for Crappie fishing. Those lighter types usually have spreader wires made from stainless steel wire, but I've had them cut into the leaders with some of the bigger fish possible in the salt. Those tennis cord rigs are made with a heavy brass wire spreader that doesn't damage the leader.
Also, look around for prices for those rigs as they'll vary a lot from one retailer to another. Last time I bought any, which was a few years ago I found them online at a shop here in MD. (Oyster Bay Tackle in Ocean City). Unfortunately the women who ran that shop passed away last year, and I no longer see them listed. She was one of the good ones who had a reputation for knowing how to keep things stocked that anglers actually could use! ~shade
Anyway, Jero's Tackle & South Bend both make them, so you should be able to find them easy enough. Some will come with sinkers, but I usually try to get just the rig & add my own sinkers.
I did a quick search & found them ranging in price from $1.99 to $6.50 for the same rigs, so you do have to look around! :(
Yes, a silver/nickel spinner works well, but there are times gold or even a painted blade will get more action. I don't get too concerned about fancy blade colors like you might see on Walleye rigs and stick to basic colors like chartreuse, white or black in addition to the silver or gold.
I've never heard of a Tennis cord rig. Can you provide a couple of pictures of them opened up Jim? They aren't available around here from what I can tell, and would probably have to make some up.
Yes, the Ugly Stick will handle quite large fish, no problem.
50 lb mono will be tough to cast any great distance, but will handle just about anything you are going to encounter.
All I see you need are hooks, weights, and a Good 8 inch or longer pair of long nosed stainless steel pliers. Also get a pair of toenail clippers from the dollar store to cut your fishing line easier.
You might want to put all of your gear into a 5 gallon bucket, this way you can have your cooler cleared out for drinks and snacks, and if you are going to bring fish home, can put them in there too.
Sounds like you are just about to be on your way to catching fish. NOW we will be looking for reports, and pictures of those catches. ~read ~bb
Jim, I don't have a pic of the rig as it would look in use, but here's a good one in a package. The main line is the same material used to string tennis rackets, thus the name. There's a swivel at the top, two spreaders where you would attach your hook leaders & a clip at the bottom for attaching your sinker. In this pic, there's a sinker with the rig. As you can see, and as I said above these are much heavier duty than the Hi Lo rigs commonly used by Crappie anglers or made with the stainless wire.
(https://www.ultimatebass.com/bass-fishing-forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi879.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab352%2Ftidewaterfly%2FOther%2520Terminal%2520Tackle%2Ftenniscordrig_zps9gbwbhbl.jpg&hash=9ecb47d9234580004c06a17e9853aa0d3a4b54c4) (http://s879.photobucket.com/user/tidewaterfly/media/Other%20Terminal%20Tackle/tenniscordrig_zps9gbwbhbl.jpg.html)
I see, Jim. So basically it is a double drop rig with wire stand offs, and the main line is Tennis Racket wire.
I have seen something similar made for blue water fishing in England, but they only use one boom.
I can see where they are drop down rigs instead of castable. Interesting idea. When I get bored, might try to make something similar, although will probably use mono as the main line. When I do, I'll post pictures.
I ordered all my supplies and will probably get to fishing next weekend!
Thank you Pferox for all your help, would've had a way harder time without you.
QuoteSo basically it is a double drop rig with wire stand offs, and the main line is Tennis Racket wire.
That's exactly correct! They can be cast short distances, but not the best rig for long distance. I generally use stout boat casting/trolling rods with this type of rig so they don't cast all that well anyway.
Stout mono will work too if you make your own. I like these rigs primarily because of the heavy brass wire spreaders. If I could find a source for them & would make my own too. I can find the stainless wire type, but not what I want.
Quote from: Trigger3lite on April 11, 2015, 07:37:32 PM
I ordered all my supplies and will probably get to fishing next weekend!
Thank you Pferox for all your help, would've had a way harder time without you.
Glad you are getting ready to fish. I'm looking forward to reports, and pictures of your fantastic catches, and if you have any more questions, don't hesitate to ask, one of us will be around to help.
Quote from: bigjim5589 on April 11, 2015, 08:17:48 PM
That's exactly correct! They can be cast short distances, but not the best rig for long distance. I generally use stout boat casting/trolling rods with this type of rig so they don't cast all that well anyway.
Stout mono will work too if you make your own. I like these rigs primarily because of the heavy brass wire spreaders. If I could find a source for them & would make my own too. I can find the stainless wire type, but not what I want.
Ought to check on brass brazing wire, they have them in different sizes. I've also seen heavier copper rigging wire, although that might not be thick or stout enough, AND maybe too flexible.
I'm going to try to find this Youtube episode they did on the Totally Awesome Fishing Show that they showed how to make the standoffs they use, out of Coat Hangers, and they show the couple of types of commercial ones available.
Why not stainless? Might actually find heavier single strand leader wire that would do the job.
That is an interesting rig, definitely going to work on a couple of prototypes, that I can half cast around here to test out. I do know they would work great pier fishing.
Jim, I've thought about making my own wire spreaders, and am aware that brazing wire & heavier stainless could work, just don't have the spare time to spend bending all that wire. Plus, I don't have an appropriate type wire bender for it. The one I have is too small. I've found places that sell the stainless wire spreaders like are used on the Crappie rigs in bulk, but not the type on those tennis cord rigs. I'm sure they're available somewhere, I just haven't found them yet! lo
Ya know, except for the wire that extends the leader, they don't look much different than the dropper rigs I make out of mono, and they are castable. Mine don't tangle in the surf, but the traces might be heavier or shorter than you guys use, not sure.
Let me see if I can scrounge up a better picture of a couple of those leaders for you to see.
Here are a couple variations of my drop rigs, they are castable, and don't tangle (usually) in heavy surf, and NEVER tangle without a crab's assistance in directional current.
I'm showing a single drop just for illustration purposes, but do make double drop rigs a lot too, it is just a matter of longer main leader, adding a couple of crimps, swivel, and beads. These rigs stand off without booms, although I can see where that can be a positive thing for some applications. In directional currents I have gone down to 15lb mono traces with no problems.
This is about how it hangs naturally, without any weight, as you can see there is quite a bit of distance between the hook and main leader. This particular one has some attractor beads on the main leader to help with drum species. They will catch just about anything except big toothy critters, like large shark and King Mackerel.
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Unlike commercially made ones, I use the beads as a bearing surface for the swivel, which creates the standoff, and the free rotation around the main leader doesn't abrade it. When done correctly, it will spin freely facilitating longer life to live baits.
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There are a few ways you can attach a hook, snelling (80lb line is a challenge though), crimping directly, or adding a snap and snapping the hook on. I prefer the direct connection most of the time. Longer traces can be used instead of the shorter ones on this one if you are in directional current and aren't planning on casting long. This particular rig is more oriented for surf fishing. I made a few for a guy who uses them off of a boat somewhere around here and the trace was three times the length of the drop, don't know how it worked, never heard back from him.
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One of the nice things is that these are rebuildable and the main rig lasts a long time, compared to the commercial rigs. Just replace the traces and hooks. I even made some with replaceable traces that clip on to the swivel for a guy a while back, he has yet to have one fail, usually looses them because he forgets to retie. ~b~
They are pretty quick to make, and can be done in steps. I have the lengths for the line components marked out on my rigging table so it is pretty much a measure and cut thing if you figure it out, they are a bit more in cost compared to store bought, but are much cheaper in the long run because they last longer.
In the way of tools, all it takes is a measuring instrument, line or wire cutter (if you are making them in wire), and a good crimper.
If anybody is interested in the component list, let me know, I can post it here. This is kind of long, so I'm going to post up a cheaper, lighter, still in the test phase rig next post.
I'm trying something a little different, and cheaper for the Bayou, it is also less hardware which will be nice for bay fishing around here, especially where I go a lot, and usually donate a lot to the snag gods.
It is getting to be the time of year that the crabs are a PIA, they can tear up some terminal tackle, which is one reason I try to stick with 80 lb test mono (Ande Premium pink) instead of lighter traces. Most fish around here tend to be under 50lbs, so I figured 50lb hardware should be doable as the heaviest to look into. Heck even 20lb should work since my drags are set much lighter than that usually and most fish are relatively small in comparison.
I started off with getting some of these swivel clips off of Ebay they are very cheap, less than a nickel each, add a small swivel for about 3 cents a piece from ebay, a couple crimps, some line and I have a strong dropper rig for less than half a buck. All items are supposed to be rated at 50 lbs, with the exception of the hook trace clip I had laying around which are rated at 20 or 30 lbs I think.
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First thing I did was remove the clip and put aside for the weight clip. Since I'm only doing a few of these for test, it wasn't too big of a deal, and I do have more time than money. Then it is just a matter of assembling. The plastic housing on the one end of the swivel takes the place of the two beads so I can trap that between two crimps, leave some space, which I usually don't do with beads, but seems to work well that way with this. The swivel spins freely around the vertical line.
The little top swivel I am using is also from Ebay, and was a lot smaller than I thought a # 6 or 8 should be, but it is rated at 50 lbs, and I have been using them for other things for the past few months and they have held up exceedingly well. I have actually tied Palomar knots on it with 40lb mono, although it did take a little coaxing.
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The finished product is still a little coil-ie right now because the line came right off of the half pound spool, but with some weight on it it straightens right on out.
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Man it is tough getting a good picture of these things, even with macro. With the smaller hardware, I can see where this would make an interesting rig with wire, and am thinking about making a few that way, only concern I have is it being a big cost increase and those hang ups will still take them.
Jim, those are some good looking rigs you make! I've done some similar, but as I stated above I like to use the hooks with spinners & beads & because of the added weight they don't stay out away from the main line very well & tend to tangle. That's one reason I like the tennis cord rigs.
For the fish finder rig I use, I too use something like you've posted.
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This allows the hook & bait to slide & have little resistance so the bait is taken deeper rather than simply nibble away. I use a float on the hook leader too to aid in keeping it off the bottom. I'll use the same spinner hooks too, but not always. Depending on my target species I'll also use a circle hook.
I'm going to try those spinners. And I also use a Carolina rig with floats. Did you know they call that a Santee Cooper Rig?
I usually use some type of Carolina rig in directional current, like the Bayou, some areas in the bay. But when you get into surf fishing you are kind of stuck with some kind of dropper rig until you get out beyond the third sandbar, usually because of the clothes washer type currents.
The first of many things to come.
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